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Thread: Moon Wood

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Gotta say I'm lovin' this conversation and the levels of sophisticated insight, both real and imagined.

    Quote Originally Posted by ;
    ... leaves on the trees form a canopy which allows the leaves to have full direct sun throughout the day causing the grains of the wood to be their straightest..
    Golly gee, I'd feel way more comfortable saying that, just as the moon's gravity causes tides in the ocean, the moon's gravity also straightens the trees' grain, which is helpful as long as the gnomes fell the free at just the right moment of the day or night.

    Back to reality: Not to sound argumentative, but,
    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    ... Lines per inch is also independent of elevation where the tree is grown. ...
    When I was, marginally, into building furniture back in the '70s, the "common" knowledge was that higher-altitude wood grew slower than lower-altitude wood (think alpine vs. rainforest) and, therefore, should have had closer rings / grain pattern. Or that could be wrong?
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Quote Originally Posted by EdHanrahan View Post
    ...When I was, marginally, into building furniture back in the '70s, the "common" knowledge was that higher-altitude wood grew slower than lower-altitude wood (think alpine vs. rainforest) and, therefore, should have had closer rings / grain pattern. Or that could be wrong?
    On average. Higher elevation usually means more challenging weather conditions, perhaps poorer soil conditions and so forth. The average tree from high elevation will normally grow slower than an average tree from lower elevation, but there are so many other things that affect growth rate that it can't be considered a 'rule' that an individual tree from high elevation will have tighter growth rings than an individual tree from lower elevation.

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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    In case anyone has forgotten their high school physics, or didn't take it, or hasn't learned since, there are four fundamental forces in nature, and gravity is by far the weakest of them. Every object with mass has gravity, but its effect is only noticeable in very large, massively massive objects. This is one of the reasons I'm expressing skepticism regarding this aspect of the matter. (Pun possibly intended. )
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  5. #29
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    I clicked Tom Gibson's link and came away with this:

    "Zürcher says he suspects changes in the moon's pull may somehow drive the water from the cytoplasm into the cell walls and then back again, causing the subtle swelling and shrinking.

    The location of the water could have an important effect on the drying and quality of harvested wood..."

    I'm not sure how he made the jump from water moving back and forth between cytoplasm to cell walls to drying and quality of wood, especially "quality" of wood.

    The water that is in green wood is considered to be in two forms: free water and bound water. The water that is in the cytoplasm is free water, the water that is in the cell walls is bound water. When we dry wood we first get rid of the free water and only after that do we start to loose bound water. This is when the wood shrinks as it dries. We then remove bound water down to 19% to 6% moisture content by weight, depending on the intended use of the wood. I somehow can't see how small and reversing changes in the percentages of free and bound water before drying can make any difference in the quality of the wood. I also wonder how accurate the journalists explanation is and how Zürcher himself would explain the situation.

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  7. #30
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    One of the qualities I admire in John Hamlett is that he seems to be almost insatiably curious about the subjects that interest him. Not only does he excel at understanding wood as a material, he also has an elite understanding of the biology of trees before they become "wood". I recognize the former because I have pursued a personal interest in woodworking for 25 years or so, the latter because I studied tree biology throughout my career and still do. One informs the other, and vice versa.

    Hopefully this discussion illuminates how unhelpful marketing can be when the marketer confuses rank speculation with observations and conclusions drawn from actual data.
    Clark Beavans

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  9. #31
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Another tree heard from.

    Looking at all the factors involved (as one must when analyzing a system), the figures cited regarding water content seem much more significant than the micrometers of expansion and contraction mentioned by the author. Much more.

    But "moon wood" sure sounds cool.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  10. #32
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    And when does a sun roof become a moon roof? Back to my coffee.
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  11. #33

    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gnann View Post
    And when does a sun roof become a moon roof? Back to my coffee.
    A moon roof opens, a sun roof does not.
    By this math...an instrument made of Sun Wood will never open up

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  13. #34
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Thanks Stagehand. Another of life's mysteries resolved.
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  14. #35
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gnann View Post
    And when does a sun roof become a moon roof? Back to my coffee.
    Here is another discussion. A moon roof only opens with a flip up on the rear, a sun roof sides all the way open. Some cars have both capabilities and are advertised as having both.
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  15. #36
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    ... a sun roof sides all the way open.
    ... which is, of course, of primary importance to high school kids looking to entertain others on the road. And which surely contributes to confusion over the "moon roof" moniker!
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  16. #37
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    So the Mitsubishi Eclipse comes with both, right?

    Or do they make separate Solar and Lunar models?

    Last edited by journeybear; Jun-14-2021 at 2:42pm.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    The wood could be blessed by the hand of Apollo but with wrong processing (drying) and building methods, its still just fire wood.

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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    I think we got into the wrong phase of the moon.
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Could be just a phase we're going through ...
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  21. #41

    Default Re: Moon Wood

    I certainly hope we are not being mooned here.

  22. #42
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    S sunroof was meant to be opened and or removed, a moon roof was usually tinted and may or may not open.
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  23. #43
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    We know where moon wood really comes from ...

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  24. #44
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    The marketing of wood, varieties, harvesting, and processing keeps getting more florid and complex. 95% of what is said is just marketing, and no more.

    Q: What are the qualities of a good piece of wood?
    A: Stiff, dense, resonant, and well seasoned.

    The last time I saw John Arnold, we had the following exchange:

    John: I just got two more red spruce trees. I got 300 or 400 tops.
    Me: Was any of it any good?
    John: Yeah, I kept about 40. I sold the rest to [name of well known manufacturer deleted].

    The last "boutique" guitar that went across my work bench had a red spruce top that Martin would have thrown in the furnace in the old days. The owner, who is an accomplished player, told me that he kept hoping that the instrument would "shake loose," but he had owned the guitar for 2 or 3 years and it still hadn't opened up. I told him that it probably wouldn't.

    He would have been better off if it had been built with a good piece of Sitka rather than that mediocre piece of red spruce.

    There's still some good wood to be found. I understand that some very fine wood is coming from Eastern Europe. From time to time, the forests of the pacific northwest yield some fine trees. Red spruce of high quality can still be found, but it's not very common. It takes perhaps 300 years for a spruce tree to reach sufficient size to yield instrument tops, and red spruce was over-harvested long ago. There just aren't that many big red spruce trees around right now, and not every tree produces good instrument wood.

    I remember going through the Adirondacks in the 1970's. Millions of acres of young pine trees, planted in even rows. There's not much old spruce up there.

    As far as harvesting and processing goes, I'm waiting to see whether or not the whole torrefication thing blows up somewhere down the road. For four centuries, the best builders always preferred air-dried wood over heat processed wood. I'll bet that there are reasons for that that are more than mere tradition.

    Give me a nice stiff piece of wood, well seasoned, with a good clear tap tone. I don't care much about the species or the number of grain lines per inch.

    "Moon spruce" certainly sounds nice and romantic. But whenever and however it is harvested, it's the quality of the tree itself that matters.
    I'm glad this thread came up, though. I've been wondering what "moon spruce" was for 3 or 4 years.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jun-15-2021 at 12:07am.

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  26. #45
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Shmergel Devastators have been built from 100% moonwood since the beginning of the company. Strings are Moonel steel and tuners are made from tensilized crater ore. Consult your rep at your local Shmergel showroom. The new 2022 models will be out soon.
    C'mon, Jim, ain't no "local Shmergel showroom." If you're on the insider illuminati confidential exclusive elite Shmergel contact list, you've already received an encrypted e-mail announcing that a slightly modified Devastator will be made available some time between 2025 and 2050.

    This is entirely due to the company's sensitivity to environmental concerns, and the endangered status of the dwarf eucalyptus trees that are the source of lubricant for the tuner bearings. Shmergel engineers are in the process of developing a self-lubricating bearing, but due to some unintended personnel exposure to radiation during the development process, actual on-site testing has been indefinitely delayed.

    Since the Devastator waiting list now exceeds the population of Montenegro, hopes for purchase of the new model are dimming. I'd like to say that Devastators can be found on the used market, but no one who owns one has yet to part with it; even after an owner dies, the instrument is jealously guarded by his/her heirs. Hate to break it to ya, but ya better settle for that Lloyd Loar F-5 or that Gilchrist, 'cause ya ain't gettin' no Devastator!
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  27. #46
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Quote Originally Posted by Stagehand View Post
    A moon roof opens, a sun roof does not.
    By this math...an instrument made of Sun Wood will never open up
    Ummm. My experience is that a sunroof opens directly to the outside world (I used to call mine my hair dryer). A moonroof has glass or some other clear material covering the opening so you can look out at the night sky without being exposed to the elements.
    Last edited by Sheila Lagrand; Jun-16-2021 at 8:16pm. Reason: Because I wrote it like a know-it-all, and I don't!
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  28. #47
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    I'll never understand, as long as I may live, why so many people won't just look stuff up when they're not sure. There's this thing now called the internet, which provides the ability to do just that with ease and speed. And a lot of what you read there is actually true. I think ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunroof

    A sunroof is a movable panel that opens to uncover a window in an automobile roof, allowing light and/or fresh air to enter the passenger compartment. Sunroofs can be manually operated or motor driven, and are available in many shapes, sizes and styles. While the term sunroof is now used generically to describe any glass panel in the roof, the term "moonroof" was historically used to describe stationary glass panes rigidly mounted in the roof panel over the passenger compartment. A moonroof has a glass panel that is transparent and usually tinted.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  29. #48

    Default Re: Moon Wood

    I'll never understand, as long as I may live, why so many people won't just look stuff up when they're not sure.
    But it is so much more fun to just make things up.

    My kids are in their 40s and still trying to figure out how much misinformation Dad gave them when they were young.

  30. #49
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    Default Re: Moon Wood

    Eh. In some contexts, I suppose. When trying to arrive at the truth of a matter, in which facts are a factor, reliable information is key. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't trust my memory all the time. Some things I know I know; a lot of things, I assume I've heard somewhere from someone or some other source - lots of room for error there. So unless you're blessed/cursed with photographic memory, look it up. That's all I'm saying. Not a big deal.

    Sorry for ruining people's fun.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  31. #50

    Default Re: Moon Wood

    To All...

    I had it backwards and stand corrected.
    'Should have taken the time to look it up instead of relying on memory.
    I apologize for any confusion...Sean


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