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Thread: Oval A

  1. #1
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Oval A

    This has probably come up before. I have Hogo's plans some Siminoff and other builders' plans for F-hole instruments. I have an OldWave oval A that I had built. I have never really felt the need for another instrument. But now that I am in the process of building one, not just experimenting to the point of failure and frustration I have a couple of questions.

    I have never handled an F model with an oval hole. But it seems in pictures I am looking at that A and F models with oval holes have the fretboard on the top, not elevated like an F-hole instrument. Is there a structural reason for this? Would having an F-styled instrument with an elevated fret board using an oval hole really be a problem?

    I'm sure it could affect the tone because the fretboard in my mind sitting on the top does change the way the top reacts to movement. Or am I just overthinking and all wet with this assumption? I am very curious how an oval instrument would sound with the elevated fretboard.

    Thanks all, Happy 4th!
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Oval A

    The fingerboard on the top is how Orville's original mandolins were made. Over time Gibson company changed the design to the mid teen ovals we are most familiar with, mainly to make production easier than how Orville had done it, but always stuck with the board on top. When they decided to make the F-5, the elevated board was one of the innovations.
    Several folks including me have built hybrid ovals with F-5 appointments like extended neck and elevated board. You don't get exactly the same sound as the traditional ones but it's doable.

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  4. #3
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    Collings, Northfield and Weber all produce F-4 style mandolins with elevated fingerboards.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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  6. #4
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    Hmmm, I never saw an elevated board oval on an FStyle. Other than of F4 from Gibson I haven’t seen another oval F. I need to google some more!
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  7. #5

    Default Re: Oval A

    This is the one I made.
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  9. #6
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    Where does it tonally? I know I love the sound of the nonelevated ones but wonder how much difference there is between elevated and nonelevated? Thanks!
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  10. #7
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    Default Re: Oval A

    As I look at the mandolin that Jim pictured, I note at least three things that may have an effect on the tone:

    1. The sound hole is further forward than a 1910's Gibson.
    2. The same is true for the bridge position.
    3. The elevated board. But the degree that it might affect the tone will depend on the size of the neck block, the length of the fingerboard support block, and the length of any gap beneath the end of the fingerboard. I just made a measurement of the additional amount of top that is free to vibrate on an F-5 as compared to an old F-4. That difference is about 1 1/4".

    With three differences from the design of an old F-4, it is difficult to say how much effect each factor might have upon the tone.
    I will note that top excursion on any wooden string instrument is much greater near the bridge than it is close to the fingerboard, no matter how the instrument is built.

    One guitar maker that I have spoken to says that the area adjacent to the fingerboard is "acoustically dead." Although I do not necessarily agree with him, that area is certainly much less active than the area below the waist.

    Jim's instrument adds several F-5 characteristics to the F-4 design. Therefore, I would expect its tonal palette to move a little closer to that of an F-5.

    The only remaining design differences between Jim's mandolin and an F-5 are the oval sound hole and, if Jim did not use tone bars, the bracing. An interesting experiment would be to build an oval hole F model that had the long neck, elevated board, F-5 graduations, and F-5 tone bars. Then, we would find out something about how much the style of the sound holes affects the tone of an F bodied instrument.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jul-04-2021 at 1:46pm.

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  12. #8

    Default Re: Oval A

    I haven't heard it in over 10 years but yes, it was to my ears really like a blend of the two styles.
    This was a custom order. I really never wanted to make an oval. To me there are plenty of vintage Gibsons at decent prices so I never understood building them.
    By the way, it is X braced.

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  14. #9
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    Thanks for the replies! I personally went with the OldWave to get the specs I wanted and new. I wanted to be the first owner and the one to grow with it and break it in. I just hope my kids or their kids will continue on with it as a family instrument. Now I am being seduced by the F shape. It is a disease I think. I mean if I could afford an Ellis I would be In Like Flynn! But I look forward to finishing an instrument I don't fiddle with until it is unusable.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  15. #10

    Default Re: Oval A

    The one thing I learned after my first few (never sold) oval-hole mandolins collapsed:

    I used to think of graduations for an archtop mandolin like this: thick in the center, thinning towards the edges.
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    For an oval-hole mandolin especially, it should be more like this. A thick center area running from neck to tailblock:
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    The old Gibsons are actually like this, as well. Don't skimp on those areas beneath the extension and below the tailpiece.

    I think Max Girouard posted this originally:
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  17. #11
    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    Ditto what Marty said. Also, though it may go without saying, I would recommend using an X brace instead of the Gibson-style lateral brace that tends to come unglued.

    I've built several of these hybrid oval-hole instruments, with the elevated fretboard, X brace, and typically a 14-fret neck. I usually describe these as having a low end similar to a Gibson oval-hole ("tubby", "sweet", etc.) with a high end similar more to an F5 ("crisp", "clear"). In my opinion that's the best of both worlds, if you're looking for that sweet low end. One danger is having the G strings resonate too loudly, so you need to take precautions to keep the air chamber from being tuned too low (don't make the body too big or the back too floppy).
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  19. #12
    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    By the way, I'd be surprised if the elevated fretboard by itself has much of an effect on the sound, because that portion of the top is isolated by the sound hole anyway. In many ways the non-elevated fretboard makes it easier to build (particularly finishing). I think the main tonal differences, as mentioned above, come from the bridge position and the X brace. I've also built some of these with a longer scale length, which pushes the bridge back more towards the Gibson position, while still allowing you a longer neck. That does give it more of the Gibson sound.

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  21. #13
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    the differences seem to lie in the neck joint? I've never seen an oval hole with 12-fret neck joint and elevated fretboard. I'm no maker, but maybe it just can't happen?

    f-d
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  22. #14

    Default Re: Oval A

    It's just fashion, I believe. The elevated look is just a little more modern and premium-looking. And it's just what we are used to making, mainly. Pretty sure if everyone wanted F-4 copies and they fetched Porsche prices, we'd make more instruments with non-elevated fretboards.

  23. #15
    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    Quote Originally Posted by amowry View Post
    By the way, I'd be surprised if the elevated fretboard by itself has much of an effect on the sound, because that portion of the top is isolated by the sound hole anyway. In many ways the non-elevated fretboard makes it easier to build (particularly finishing). I think the main tonal differences, as mentioned above, come from the bridge position and the X brace. I've also built some of these with a longer scale length, which pushes the bridge back more towards the Gibson position, while still allowing you a longer neck. That does give it more of the Gibson sound.
    Dave Cohen pointed out to me that tops actually vibrate as if the sound holes aren't there at all, in other words the vibrating modes don't "see" the sound holes. So, I may have been too hasty in my supposition above that the elevated fretboard doesn't make much of a difference. I guess someone needs to make two identical mandolins, with and without an elevated fretboard .

  24. #16

    Default Re: Oval A

    The elevated board was intended to allow for the more dome shaped top of an F5 as well as give you a slightly higher bridge than the board on top allowed for. (IMO)

  25. #17

    Default Re: Oval A

    This is a print of a Gibson A model oval by Scott Artes. Assuming it is correct, you can see how in a lot of ways these mandolins were kind of a flat top to allow for the bridge. Elevating the board allowed for a true dome shaped top that is one of the hallmarks of the F5.
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  26. #18

    Default Re: Oval A

    This really goes back to the original Orville mandolins. I borrowed this shot from Fretboard Journal. You can see the arch is almost ornamental instead of functional.
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  27. #19
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    Default Re: Oval A

    I appreciate Andrew using describing the backs as "floppy". I've built four mandolins, and it takes a few to get comfortable with the concept that the strong center of the top or back can resist the pressure of the strings so the perimeter can be quite flexible. It's difficult to describe in words when to stop carving but at least thinking "floppy" has gotten me closer to where i want the top or back to be. And of course it makes all the difference in the tone.

  28. #20
    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval A

    Just to be clear, I was advising against having the back be floppy . Especially with these oval-hole instruments, that seems to contribute to overwhelming bass in some cases.

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