Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 67

Thread: Key of the song based on the melody

  1. #26

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Every time I think I’m learning to swim a thread like this comes along and reminds me how vast is the ocean.

  2. #27
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    1,608
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    I think what Don said is that there is a 'modulation', meaning that it shifts away from the key for a little while.

    "What happens on the G chord is we actually momentarily leave the key of A."
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  3. #28
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    28,628

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    I think what Don said is that there is a 'modulation', meaning that it shifts away from the key for a little while.

    "What happens on the G chord is we actually momentarily leave the key of A."
    Far be it from me to contradict the great Don S and that certainly is a way to look at it. However, I think the confusion is in our notation system. Essentially, if a tune is notated with two sharps is it generally thought to be D Major or B minor but those are only two modesóthere are five othersóthat would apply. The only way I can understand it is to consider in the case of Salt Creek that the scale is based on the D major scale but starts and end on the fifth degree of the scale. So it would be: A B C# D E F# G A. You could write it with three sharp key signature but then you would have to make every G natural which defeats the purpose of key signature. What is lacking, AFAIK in standard notation is any indication of what the mode is. However, if I see only two sharps and in a traditional tune it ends on an A then I would assume it is A modal/myxolydian.

    Frankly, the OP's random choice(?) of a modal tune complicated the answer to his or her question. Now we are in a discussion on modes when the question was how to determine from notes in a tune what key it is in.

    BTW, if you really want to glaze over, take a look here at wikipedia page on modes.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    2018 Campanella A-5 -- 2007 Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jim Garber For This Useful Post:


  5. #29
    Registered User TonyEarth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    291
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Essentially, if a tune is notated with two sharps is it generally thought to be D Major or B minor but those are only two modes—there are five others—that would apply.
    Ah, something about this statement makes this entire discussion kind of "click" better for me, thanks. Coming from a violin background, this also explains why a classical piece with the same key signature might be called e.g. "Concerto in D Major" or "Concerto in B minor". ....I've not often (never?) seen mention of any other modes in classical pieces though, so if anyone can shed some light on what that's about...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Frankly, the OP's random choice(?) of a modal tune complicated the answer to his or her question. Now we are in a discussion on modes when the question was how to determine from notes in a tune what key it is in.
    I think I don't follow here. Couldn't we consider every tune "modal", per your previous statement, as every tune is in some mode? Or does "modal" refer to only specific modes for some reason?

    But further, isn't a discussion of modes fundamentally necessary for a discussion of what key a tune is in? I think the whole confusion for the OP (or certainly for me anyway) was that when the tune is said to be in "the key of A" in the video, we didn't understand that, precisely because we didn't have a good understanding of modes. We'd only kind of happen upon the correct key if the mode was major (or minor?).
    Diego

    Eastman MD315
    Kentucky KM505
    JBovier ELS
    ---
    Ivan Dunov VL402 Violin

  6. #30
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    1,608
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyEarth View Post
    I think I don't follow here. Couldn't we consider every tune "modal", per your previous statement, as every tune is in some mode? Or does "modal" refer to only specific modes for some reason?
    Modal refers to a pattern of notes, usually a scale wise group of eight, sometimes five as in a pentatonic mode.

    The western system of notation (not the middle east or China) bases everything on a major scale. From there you get minor scales and modal patterns based on which note you start from.

    Like math, it gets confusing until you understand the system and methods. Going from just what you hear with out a 'roadmap' is difficult.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  7. #31
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    1,608
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyEarth View Post
    Ah, something about this statement makes this entire discussion kind of "click" better for me, thanks. Coming from a violin background, this also explains why a classical piece with the same key signature might be called e.g. "Concerto in D Major" or "Concerto in B minor". ....I've not often (never?) seen mention of any other modes in classical pieces though, so if anyone can shed some light on what that's about...
    Most all classical pieces describe the fundamental or general sound of the piece, as in Concerto in D Major. They often wander into other modes and keys before coming home, so the other stuff is never mentioned.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  8. #32
    Stop the chop!
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    europe
    Posts
    1,469
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyEarth View Post
    Ah, something about this statement makes this entire discussion kind of "click" better for me, thanks. Coming from a violin background, this also explains why a classical piece with the same key signature might be called e.g. "Concerto in D Major" or "Concerto in B minor". ....I've not often (never?) seen mention of any other modes in classical pieces though, so if anyone can shed some light on what that's about...



    I think I don't follow here. Couldn't we consider every tune "modal", per your previous statement, as every tune is in some mode? Or does "modal" refer to only specific modes for some reason?

    But further, isn't a discussion of modes fundamentally necessary for a discussion of what key a tune is in? I think the whole confusion for the OP (or certainly for me anyway) was that when the tune is said to be in "the key of A" in the video, we didn't understand that, precisely because we didn't have a good understanding of modes. We'd only kind of happen upon the correct key if the mode was major (or minor?).

    What distinguishes "tonal" (e.g., minor) from "modal" (e.g., eolian or dorian) usually is the role of harmony, whether "functional" or not. I will have to refer you internet for further explanations of that concept (how one chord leads to, or even forces, the next) and content myself with examples. In typically minor, not modal, tunes you may find the iv chord preceded by a I7 chord, with the third clearly outside the minor scale. A V7 chord leading back to the i chord clearly indicates a harmonic minor tonality, and quite often is preceded by the scondary dominant, II7 -- Petite Fleur would be a typical example of this.

    If you enjoy being confused you might want to examine the harmony and melody of Jerusalem Ridge, where parts of it indicate harmonic minor, yet there are also suggestions of pentatonics. And in the fourth, climactic, section there's a C chord, which is open to interpretation (melodic minor, relative major??). Well, less confusing is to not worry about that at all; the tune retains a strong a minor flavor all the way with a direction determined by the various chords.

  9. #33
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    23,836
    Blog Entries
    55

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    I am not an ethnomusicologist, or a historian, but I have a theory about how these modes became so popular in the different kinds of traditional and folk musics (within western music). FWIW.

    My experience is that I started out learning to read music, way back in my woodwind days. I also absorbed a lot of music theory, whatever the heck "a lot" means. Point is I started out in a world of sheet music and theory. When I wandered into traditional music, old time, folk music, etc., I was struck by how the musicians were fearlessly playing in modes other than major and minor. Traditions of music that did not involve formal lessons, formal music theory, or the like, playing in Dorian and Mixolydian and what not.

    So I figured out it had to be from times when folks were (predominantly?) playing home made instruments that were made diatonic - instruments that did not play every note, just all the notes of a major scale. (No black keys). Mess around with a diatonic instrument long enough and you bump into all the wonderful modes (as explained above) and what deeply emotional music you can make with them. Addicting.

    Even today mountain dulcimers, many hammered dulcimers, and some harps, are predominantly diatonic, and really, many woodwinds, the more folkie variety without many or any keys, whistle and Irish flutes and what not, are predominantly diatonic. And anyone who learns a regular chromatic clarinet, oboe flute, sax, etc., is immediately impressed at how the whole thing is built around a major scale, and all the accidentals are "added" keys and awkward fingerings. As if the instrument evolved from a diatonic world and had all the chromatics added as an afterthought.

    Like why are accidentals in a piano keyboard set aside and colored black. Why not 88 keys all side by side, same color, (and maybe mark the octaves with dots like a fret board marker)? Likely something about evolving from an instrument that wasn't chromatic. No?

    Seriously, I have no idea if there is anything in what I am saying, but it really seems evident to me.

    That is my theory and I am sticking with it, anyway until i don't.

    Wait till you hear my equally speculative history of the origins of the pentatonic scale.
    Last edited by JeffD; Jul-27-2021 at 12:52pm.
    Life is short, play hard. Life is really really short, play really really hard.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JeffD For This Useful Post:


  11. #34
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    1,608
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Jeff, you've hit on one of my favorite topics. (And now I know I'm not alone, ha, ha). Origins of melodies based on the capabilities of the instrument. I should write a PHd thesis on the topic. Want to join in? Naw, I'm getting to old for that kind of stuff. Better to just play the tunes and leave the talk to younger players. However, just this morning I was saying to my wife that song melodies are different than bagpipe melodies because of the capabilities of the instrument. That 'fooling around' with a diatonic instrument and finding a melody is so different from say, Bach composing a tune based on harmonic theory and tonal relationships. Both methods good, but I get some strange looks from my professional violinist friends when my organic theory comes up.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  12. #35

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    JeffD, as a (diatonic) harmonica player I’m inclined to think there’s some merit in your theory. Although it’s only been the last four or five years that I realized how to effectively comp and lead on some of the minor and modal songs (even if I didn’t know what to call the modal ones).

  13. #36

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Many other systems were used prior to the age of 12tet temperament that progressively supplants older traditional forms. Of course this coincides with polyphony, ensemble, etc. (The instruments mentioned are of course all modern instruments whose layouts reflect their intended use). If you have a look at Arabic maqam you can get a glimpse of pre-modern (pre diatonic, major/minor, etc) tonality, form, aesthetics.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_maqam

    Ancient instruments of East Asia utilize a pentatonic tuning basis (Taoist principles also employ 5-element theory, etc), but the music is made from continuous micro-tones.

  14. The following members say thank you to catmandu2 for this post:


  15. #37
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    561

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	6EF3A79A-EFFC-4B19-9D79-CE471D26AAE9.jpeg 
Views:	70 
Size:	916.4 KB 
ID:	195433

    Some have noted that many fiddle tunes from the british isles are entirely modal, and were likely first played on simple flutes or pipes which are diatonic instruments. That music actually is older than our western system of harmony, western theory. I should say "those musics", because there are many systems that predate our formal western harmony. So it's fine to say that a tune like Salt Creek or similar is modal, even though it leaves A mix for a couple of notes, and has had chords assigned to it. Salt Creek might be newer, but most of these tunes have had chords assigned very recently.

    But look at this tune. It's written in the key of A, and it does not change keys, it remains in the key of A. It does change key centers many times. What modes would you say are played?

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lowtone2 For This Useful Post:


  17. #38

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Gaelic harp is an interesting study in this regard; traditional methods (tunings, temperaments, instrument-making) can still be deployed. (There is no definitive etiological record as its documentation is scant.)

  18. #39
    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Boston, Mass.
    Posts
    2,561

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	6EF3A79A-EFFC-4B19-9D79-CE471D26AAE9.jpeg 
Views:	70 
Size:	916.4 KB 
ID:	195433



    But look at this tune.
    Hard to figure what's what w/o the lyrics.
    "The paths of experimentation twist and turn through mountains of miscalculations, and often lose themselves in error and darkness!"
    --Leslie Daniel, "The Brain That Wouldn't Die."

    Some tunes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa1...SV2qtug/videos

  19. #40
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I agree, it is A mixolydian, which has the same key signature as D major. I have great trouble identifying a mode by hearing it. Especially mixolydian, which I get wrong all the time. But certainly, if all the notes are in the key of D major, yet the tune resolves to A, it is A mixolydian.

    Modes are very confusing, and (I believe) modes are taught in a manner that makes them more confusing than they have to be. What you need to identify the modes and play in the modes is different than what you need to understand the modes, and I think teaching the "understanding" part first is a mistake.

    I think you are doing great to identify that it is related to D, and you can play D scale notes! That is not nothing. Really great.

    No matter how far we all get in this ocean that is music, the amount that there is still to get is gigantic. The fact that some folks can swim out farther than I can does not make them significantly closer to the far shore.
    Without trying to be funny, Iím not sure anybody truly understands what the modes are. I've spent hours reading, watching videos and talking to musicians, and no one has said the same thing. My mother, a magnificent musician, told me you donít need to worry about them. The more I look at them the more right she becomes.
    JBovier ELS; Epiphone MM-50 VN; Epiphone MM-40L; Gretsch New Yorker G9310; Washburn M1SDLB;

    Fender Nashville Deluxe Telecaster; Squier Modified Vintage Cabronita Telecaster; Gretsch 5420T; Fender Tim Armstrong Hellcat: Washburn Banjo B9; Ibanez RB 5string; Ibanez RB 4 string bass

    Pedalboard for ELS: Morley Cry baby Miniwah - Tuner - EHX Soul Food Overdrive - EHX Memory Toy analog Delay
    Fender Blues Jr Tweed; Fender Greta;

  20. #41
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    561

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    Without trying to be funny, Iím not sure anybody truly understands what the modes are. I've spent hours reading, watching videos and talking to musicians, and no one has said the same thing. My mother, a magnificent musician, told me you donít need to worry about them. The more I look at them the more right she becomes.
    There's more than one right answer. The first thing to learn, I think, is just the modes of the major scale. You can learn how they apply to different situations later, but a dorian scale will always be a major scale with flatted 3rd and 7th degrees. It's really not complicated.

  21. #42
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    23,836
    Blog Entries
    55

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    While I agree that modes are not the most important thing to learn, I have noticed that everything I have "not needed to worry about" has eventually bit me in the tail piece.

    Just recently I was learning the song Joseph Baker, and recognized the melody as maybe being that of the sea shanty Rolling Down to Old Maui.

    No they are not the same tune. One is major and the other is not. (Minor?) But it took me a while to figure it out. My muscle memory for the sea shanty kept getting in the way of actually playing the Joseph Baker.

    So they are not the same tune. Why? Because umm.... modes. Thats's why.


    Both really really excellent songs by the way. Really really excellent.
    Life is short, play hard. Life is really really short, play really really hard.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  22. #43
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    23,836
    Blog Entries
    55

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyEarth View Post
    I think I don't follow here. Couldn't we consider every tune "modal", per your previous statement, as every tune is in some mode? Or does "modal" refer to only specific modes for some reason?
    Well in common talking, when someone says its a modal tune they mean "not major". In exact scientific speak, yea you are probably right.

    But further, isn't a discussion of modes fundamentally necessary for a discussion of what key a tune is in? I think the whole confusion for the OP (or certainly for me anyway) was that when the tune is said to be in "the key of A" in the video, we didn't understand that, precisely because we didn't have a good understanding of modes. We'd only kind of happen upon the correct key if the mode was major (or minor?).
    It is one of those topics that is not a big deal until it is a big deal. I agree it is fundamentally necessary, as you say, but I know that if I had to learn modes before I learned the darn tune, well I would give it all up. Like having to learn Mersenne's Laws before I can even tune up, while at some point for sure some of Mersenne will be crucial to some decision I have to make about mandolin strings.
    Life is short, play hard. Life is really really short, play really really hard.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  23. The following members say thank you to JeffD for this post:


  24. #44
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    1,608
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post

    Just recently I was learning the song Joseph Baker, and recognized the melody as maybe being that of the sea shanty Rolling Down to Old Maui.



    Both really really excellent songs by the way. Really really excellent.
    HOLY SMOKES JEFF !!!! Rolling Down to Old Maui was recorded live in Minneapolis and I'm on the track!!!!
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  25. #45

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    Without trying to be funny, Iím not sure anybody truly understands what the modes are. I've spent hours reading, watching videos and talking to musicians, and no one has said the same thing. My mother, a magnificent musician, told me you donít need to worry about them. The more I look at them the more right she becomes.
    Minor is a mode. I think that is probably useful to most musicians to understand that.

    There is a lot to learn with modes. Not all of it will be useful to all people.

    The question which started this whole string is an example of where understanding another mode, the mixolydian, can be helpful in everyday playing. It is used a lot. The whole question was how to play over a song that seems to be in the key of D but uses a G scale or seems to be in the key of A but uses a D scale. That applies to a lot of common fiddle tunes like Salt Creek, Red Haired Boy and Old Joe Clark. It also applies to a huge number of folk and pop tunes like I Know You Rider, Can't You See, Angel from Montgomery, Buy for Me the Rain, Morning Dew, If I Were a Carpenter and on and on. These are songs that get played a lot in jams and casual playing. The question of how to deal with them became interesting to me when I flopped on stage trying to play over one of these songs.

    I have only dipped my foot into working with modes. Some of them I will probably never use. In a class on modes John Carlini said the Locrian mode is "too weird" and no one ever uses it. He is a sophisticated, educated jazz musician. If he does not use it then it is unlikely I ever will. I do not find knowing modes simply for the sake of saying I know them particularly useful.

    I think it is best to learn these scales as you need them one by one in a song context. You will use the the three common modes, Ionian(major), Aeolian (natural minor) and mixolydian, whether or not you know the names or care. The same with the melodic and harmonic minor scales. If you do not improvise or create melodies and just repeat a particular arrangement you learn for a song without variation it is not important. If you improvise or create melodies then they can lead you other directions you may not have considered. And they may help you understand what a musician is doing who is not following normal scales.

    I think there are two difficulties to understanding them.

    One is that there are four ways of seeing them. One is to see them as a major scale with a different starting point, like a G scale starting and ending on D. That is how they are normally taught. It was never helpful to me. The second is to look at them as a major scale with an alteration. For example mixolydian is a major scale with a flat 7th note or aeolian(minor) is a major scale with flatted 3, 6 and 7th notes. The third is similar to the previous one except to see some as altered major scales and some as altered minor scales. The fourth is to see them as scales with different orders of whole and half steps. Major is wwhwwwh, minor is whwwhww, mixolydian is wwhwwhw and so forth. Each approach is correct. One may be easier to understand or use for any particular person.

    The other problem is that there are seven of the church modes. They use Greek names. There are also other scales and modes outside that system, Klezmer guys have their own set of scale modes they use. Harmonic and melodic minor are additional modes. Pentatonic is another and the blues scales are still more. Understanding and using all of them is a huge endeavor. Consider what it took to explore and understand major then minor scales. Multiply that by the rest of the modes or at least the ones you will use.

    Few if any people can get through all of them thoroughly. They use a few of them a lot depending on the style of music they play and others pretty sporadically. If you play Klezmer you will use a Freygish mode. If you play flamenco or Spanish music you will play in an altered Phrygian mode a lot. If you play blues you will use a major and minor blues scale. If you do not play these styles you may never use that particular mode.

  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CarlM For This Useful Post:


  27. #46
    Stop the chop!
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    europe
    Posts
    1,469
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Perhaps we can agree that you cannot determine the tonal center or mode of a tune from the melody notes alone. You got to see/hear the tune as a whole, along with
    the harmony.

    A few more examples:

    1) Lord Thomas and Fair Ellen. Let’s say the notes in the beginning are d, e, f#, g, a b — without accompanying chords my ear will hear a distinct G major tonality. Yet the song ends on a d note, which to me is just the fifth of the g chord, certainly not indicating a D mixolydian modality.

    2) I Know Where I’m Going. First notes: g, g, a, b , g, g. Then my ear will fit a D7 chord to the final notes, giving the song an unfinished character. Still G major, but no final G chord, and, again, not mixolydian.

    3) Wondrous Love. I learned that beautiful melody from a collection by folklorist Richard Chase more than 60 years ago. Recently I attempted to find a fitting harmonization, and realized a certain ambiguity: the melody notes form a six-note scale; the song could be either in the Dorian or the Mixolydian. Googling around I found a four-part choral arrangement clearly, and purely in D dorian in a typically modal, non-functional progression. I don’t know if that arrangement is standard or traditional, but I will stick with that (but a fourth higher)

  28. #47
    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    461

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by m4strmind View Post
    I've had the problem of knowing how to play the melody a song but forgetting what key its in.

    So I've been trying to take myself on an exercise of identifying the scale pattern in a tune and go "ah, all those notes are in the D scale that must be in the key of D"

    So I took salt creek as an example of a tune that i learned a while ago from this amazing teacher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a3IxFjev8g.

    This song is throwing me for a loop because its in the key of A but every note that is played is in the D scale.

    What I mean is if you start playing D scale starting on the open D string and keep going you hit that G note on the E string that you play in the B part of the tune.

    However if you play an A scale starting from the open A string you can see you never hit that G note on the E string in the scale.

    I would have guessed that this song is in D but its in A and its confusing me quite a bit!

    What bit of theory am i missing? Is there an easier way to identify the key once you've forgotten it? :-D

    Just to get back to the dilemma that the OP is/was having. My advice is to go ahead and learn the chords/harmony when learning the melody of tunes like Salt Creek. Also, modes and/or music theory are not meant to limit the notes that are found in a particular tune. Music doesn't have to obey any set of rules. Just because a melody note or notes do not regularly occur in a key or mode shouldn't require too much time pondering or explaining. It's just the way the melody goes. There are 12 available tones. .

  29. The following members say thank you to Ky Slim for this post:


  30. #48
    Stop the chop!
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    europe
    Posts
    1,469
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	6EF3A79A-EFFC-4B19-9D79-CE471D26AAE9.jpeg 
Views:	70 
Size:	916.4 KB 
ID:	195433

    Some have noted that many fiddle tunes from the british isles are entirely modal, and were likely first played on simple flutes or pipes which are diatonic instruments. That music actually is older than our western system of harmony, western theory. I should say "those musics", because there are many systems that predate our formal western harmony. So it's fine to say that a tune like Salt Creek or similar is modal, even though it leaves A mix for a couple of notes, and has had chords assigned to it. Salt Creek might be newer, but most of these tunes have had chords assigned very recently.

    But look at this tune. It's written in the key of A, and it does not change keys, it remains in the key of A. It does change key centers many times. What modes would you say are played?
    First of all, the odd key of A major indicates that this score is taken from a Bb book -- most printed editions are in the key of G. And it does change keys, from A to F in the bridge, and back to A after the bridge. But the song is full of chromatic padding and sidestepping; e.g., in the very first bar and the last two bars of the bridge (the extra cm7-F7 before and after the bm7-E7. There's a lot of cleaning up to do when improvising on this tune.

  31. #49
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    561

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    First of all, the odd key of A major indicates that this score is taken from a Bb book -- most printed editions are in the key of G. And it does change keys, from A to F in the bridge, and back to A after the bridge. But the song is full of chromatic padding and sidestepping; e.g., in the very first bar and the last two bars of the bridge (the extra cm7-F7 before and after the bm7-E7. There's a lot of cleaning up to do when improvising on this tune.

    Semantics. It changes key centers more than once, but never technically changes keys. It is from a Bb book, and why is that relevant?

    It's a very difficult harmony to analyze. It can be done, but it's better i think to just see it as supporting the melody. Yes, very hard to improvise over these changes.

    But I posted it in the spirit of the thread which seems to be just post anything, the more confusing the better.
    Last edited by lowtone2; Jul-31-2021 at 3:54pm.

  32. #50
    Stop the chop!
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    europe
    Posts
    1,469
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Key of the song based on the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    Semantics. It changes key centers more than once, but never technically changes keys.
    Not at all sure what that distinction means. The form is AABA. What happens in the AA is that the progression after 16 bars, and only then, reaches a full A major cadence by a very tortuous route. But even through all interpolations and sidestepping it all somehow relates to an A major tonality. It *could* end with an A major cadence after 8 bars, but follows the ii-V with a turnaround leading back to the beginning, a false cadence, and we hear it as such.

    After the full A major cadence there's a ii-V signaling the key of F major; after 6 bars strongly anchored in that tonality there's a harmonic gesture clearly leading back to the A major tonality, with the F7 chord sort of just delaying the reentry to the original key. If these two places aren't key changes, then what is? Do key changes within a song structure even exist? What about The Song Is You, Body and Soul, In a Sentimental Mood? Whatever changes of "key centers" you detect in the outside (A) segments don't you hear the qualitative difference between these and the passage in and out of the bridge??

    There are people who "hear" a Rhythm bridge as several shifts of tonal centers; that's not the way I conceive it, really, and if I did I would certainly hear the qualitativer difference from, say, a full chorus of IGR, in Bb, followed (by way of an F# chord) by another chorus in B.

    Here is a very good analysis of the song.

    https://www.jazzstandards.com/compos...nthatdream.htm

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •