Beginner Lessons philosophy/discussion

[Austin Bob]

From personal experience, I can definitely say that being a good musician does not necessarily make one a good teacher. Anyone can put an ad up online and call themselves a teacher. I had a guitar teacher once who was an excellent musician; he played guitar, bass and fiddle and was adept at many different styles, but I would rate him as a poor teacher. He didn't have great interpersonal skills and was poorly organized. He would start off showing one lick, but all of a sudden, he was trying to show three different things at once. The next lesson didn't go back to review what we did the week before, and after three months I'd only learned the intro to three or four songs.

I would advise you to look at reviews and try to find someone who knows how to teach you how to play music. That's what you want to do. Of course you need to learn basic stuff like scales, but every lesson should also include a bit of learning a simple song, IMHO.

Also, one of the best pieces of advice another teacher gave me was to SING! I'm not a good singer by any means but singing helps you with both pitch and rhythm. I also agree that playing with others is one of the best ways to learn.

[Dave Hanson]

An old saying, those that can do, those that can't teach.

Dave H

[DavidKOS]

From personal experience, I can definitely say that being a good musician does not necessarily make one a good teacher. Anyone can put an ad up online and call themselves a teacher.

An old saying, those that can do, those that can't teach.

Dave H

I've had the good fortune to have had teachers that were both really good teachers AND excellent players.

I have also seen many BAD teachers, folks that were not particularly good players, had poor technique, a narrow and limited knowledge of music, and the audacity to claim to be teachers.


" those that can do, those that can't teach." Unfortunately it's sometimes true...but it's not always the case.

Finding a good teacher, particularly a mandolin teacher, is not always very easy.

You need to find someone that can play the instrument at a good level of competency, has the ability to share that knowledge, and hopefully plays the kind of music you want to learn.

[Jeff Mando]

My view is keep it simple. No real philosophy except it is something you want to learn, so go do it. We first learn by copying songs we hear that we like. To quantify it you can either memorize the song or learn to read music. Either way, it takes a lot of practice.

I would add, playing with others helps and sharing songs and learning what the others know keeps it fun. Probably more than any other factor, IMHO.

Sure, I took lessons 50 years ago, but I found the process too slow for me, so I learned from records, watching live performances, television, etc. I wish we had youtube when I was a kid!

Good luck! It is a fun instrument!

[Mandobart]

My philosophy about "worth it to spend the money on a really good teacher...."
Forget about money. Your time is the major investment. Most of us can always make more money. None of us can make any more time.

It's worth your time to seek out the best fit for what you're currently looking for, which I believe is learn correct ergonomics and technique. That won't necessarily be the most expensive teacher.

Depending on your location you may not have many options for in person lessons.

[Mandobart]

We first learn by copying songs we hear that we like. To quantify it you can either memorize the song or learn to read music. Either way, it takes a lot of practice.

Forget this advice. You absolutely CAN and absolutely SHOULD learn BOTH reading music and how to learn by ear. Either way memorizing songs will come if you try. It's been a huge benefit to my 50 years of playing music.

I would add, playing with others helps and sharing songs and learning what the others know keeps it fun. Probably more than any other factor, IMHO.

This part I completely agree with.

[hgrimmett]

Good advice is timeless.

[DavidKOS]

Forget this advice. You absolutely CAN and absolutely SHOULD learn BOTH reading music and how to learn by ear.

If you are reading music, you need to be able to hear in your inner ear what the music sounds like - that's part of ear training. It's not just dots on paper that show you where to put your fingers.

Now, I'm a big proponent of reading music. But reading music without the ability to play by ear is not how the old Italians taught you - you learned to sing off of notation before they even gave you an instrument.

My teachers said that a "complete" musician can play by ear AND read music well.

[JeffD]

But is it worth spending money on a really good teacher right out of the gate or maybe find a more casual teacher to teach me the basics and then switch to a "higher quality" teacher when I want to get more advanced?

Get the very best teacher you can. Don't go with a guitar teacher that can "get you started". Get started right. If you don't want or can't find good mandolin teacher in person, find them remotely and do zoom on line instruction. Seriously, don't compromise on your first instructor. Yes it is worth it.

There are many good teachers available on line, both formally and informally. I take classical mandolin lessons from mandolin teacher three states away.

Get with Mike Marshall on Artistworks and or Sharon Gilchrist at Peghead Nation, get started right. There are other of course and many many good teachers working independently. I met my classical mandolin teacher at a workshop and I asked her if she would be my teacher via zoom.


"Well begun is half done".

Get a great teacher. Everything else is "messing around".

[DavidKOS]

Get the very best teacher you can. Don't go with a guitar teacher that can "get you started". Get started right.

As someone that has taught both guitar and mandolin, this comment by Jeff is priceless.

Sure, they are both fretted instruments, and guitars are often metal strung and played with a pick. But they are not the same!

The basic hand positions and overall approach is just not the same. If you want to learn mandolin, you need to study mandolin.

You wouldn't go to a mandolin teacher to learn guitar.

Of course there are many people that can play and teach both instruments. But avoid a guitar teacher that really is not a mandolin player.

[Mark Gunter]

Timeless advice for sure … and surely, keeping this old thread going is a good thing. I just think it’s worthy to point out that the OP posted his question nearly two years ago, and hasn’t returned to the forum since September 2021. The thread was revived by a new member who chose to introduce himself to the forum by tagging his intro post to this thread, see post #21

Again, nothing wrong with continuing to advise the OP, just be aware he’s not around to read it, lol.

[DavidKOS]

I just think it’s worthy to point out that the OP posted his question nearly two years ago, and hasn’t returned to the forum since September 2021..

That's not the first time that has happened. Oh well.

[JeffD]

The thread was revived by a new member who chose to introduce himself to the forum by tagging his intro post to this thread, see post #21

Again, nothing wrong with continuing to advise the OP, just be aware he’s not around to read it, lol.

Yea I figure that for everyone that asks a question there are likely many who have the same question and are not asking, so I don't mind keeping it going. Someone is benefiting I have no doubt.

[Mandobart]

I found I quit seeing any new, original questions or posts (outside of things related to new artists or technology - but then again..) after I'd been here a few years.

No matter. The AI overlords will soon synthesize all these posts into an incredible compendium of mando knowledge and all will be clear....

[Richard500]

The AI overlords will also agree on the best pick.

[Kenny]

And the best strings!

[DavidKOS]

Why not have the AI "overlords" also combine the best features of bowlback and f-style mandolins into a single uber-mandolin design.

Then we'll all be able to own one mandolin. lol

[Mark Gunter]

That's not the first time that has happened. Oh well.

I'm not sure about that, David. I mean, yes, it's not the first time a post has been resurrected where folks respond to the OP when the OP is no longer active, happens all the time. Not the first time a new question gets posted to the old thread and folks keep responding to an absent OP ignoring the new question. Happens all the time. What appears new to me is a "newish" member's first post simply introducing himself at the end of a dead thread.

Well: I don't really see an 'Introduce Yourself' place here..... but..... Hello everyone! I joined here over 12 years ago, but haven't done a darn thing here.

I am re-stringing my mandolin, and decided to jump in here. I hope to learn and contribute around these parts!

Now that also may happen around here frequently, granted I've only been here a few years. It's the first time I've seen that. I know that he's not likely to get much of a welcome using that method, lol. Because folk are going to respond to the long gone OP and comment on the original subject rather than welcoming him.

Nothing wrong with that, it's just an interesting observation to me, one I thought worthy of comment.

Carry on!

[Mark Gunter]

Chipper, there's a black button at the top of the forum that says "post new thread" - why not use that button and re-introduce yourself? Even though there's not a special "introduce yourself" section here, that's where most folks do it, in the General Discussion forum. It's not required, but if you want to introduce yourself and converse with us, try starting a new thread, you'll get a friendly welcome here, I can guarantee it

[mandocello8]

Get the very best teacher you can.

problem. new person cannot tell good teacher from bad teacher.

(other than post-mortem, "I am a bad student", "mandolin is not for me", quits in disgust. bad teacher detected. too late.).

[Mark Gunter]

problem. new person cannot tell good teacher from bad teacher.

(other than post-mortem, "I am a bad student", "mandolin is not for me", quits in disgust. bad teacher detected. too late.).

One of many problems a beginner could face, just like buying an instrument that badly needs a setup. I suppose that there are all kinds of problems that would make one quit before they really get started. Really, I think that only thing that will keep a beginner going is a strong “I want to”

Note that Jeff said the best you can

And though you’ve pointed out a possible scenario, there are numerous ways to find a good teacher, especially by asking advice in this forum. An anecdote: I can’t say my dad was a good or bad teacher. He gave me one lesson, I was 11 or 12 at the time. He showed me how to make three chords on a guitar, and showed me the chord charts in an old guitar method that represented those chords, told me how to read the charts. Then he told me to play each string individually while making those chords, and adjust my fingers until each string rang clearly. He told me to practice like that any time I wished, and that I would have to also practice changing chords smoothly until I could play in time. He showed me how to hold the pick and the instrument, things that were reinforced by the book he gave me, then he told me to learn all the songs and chords in the book.

That was my only guitar lesson and learning wasn’t easy but I’ve been playing for nearly 60 years.

Jeff’s first post to this thread two years ago contained some sage advice, I commented on it then. It’s way more important to get started and stick with it than it is to worry about making mistakes or learning some bad habit. Just be ready for a lifetime of effort and pleasure.

[catmandu2]

Have to disagree here:

Sage advice by Jeff and I want to underscore that you need not waste time worrying about having to continue learning, continue stretching, continue correcting and continue relearning as a lifelong process. I actually kind of shudder when I hear beginners obsess over learning “correct” technique so they won’t have to “relearn” anything in the future. It is not possible to learn everything or every habit perfectly from the start! Allow yourself to be human and have fun figuring things out. Go for the gusto and learn to play whatever YOU are interested in - or at least attempt to again and again.

That’s not to say that you shouldn’t try to develop great habits from the start, and seek help from journeymen and masters - not at all - but I guarantee those journeymen and masters are still correcting some bad habits and/or learning new ways to do things, with no regrets for doing so. Listen to the interviews with pros on Mandolins & Beer podcast and you’ll see what I mean.

Enjoy the journey, and don’t waste time on regrets. Life is short, play hard.

The 'classical' system is predicated on the obverse of your observation here. Tone production, and technical mastery are the fundamentals, and rigorously practiced from the outset - from the moment you pick up the instrument. 'Bad habits' are not allowed to be formed - they're corrected before being assimilated. It's what the whole system is. It hurts, but it works.

It's why the dropout rate, no doubt, more than other factors, likely.

[Mark Gunter]

I respect your opinion, cat, and some of what you write is true … the classical system is so, as you have stated. My closest encounter with that was studying horns under Mr. Morales for a few years in band. He was a classically trained, skilful teacher. But I respectfully disagree re: the dropout rate. There is a rather high dropout rate among students in formal training situations as well as among would-be folk musicians. I’m not aware of studies that compare the rates. But for this discussion I’d like to point out that many, many musicians begin and continue with no access to formal training.

I agree that what I wrote flies in the face of the fundamentals of a classical education, but in a lifetime of playing I have observed some things in people who start and don’t continue. Number one is lack of effort, despite the circumstance. Number two is equal to that, it is lack of continued interest. Another is attempting to learn to play an instrument that is basically not playable. I’ve known and played with hundreds of good musicians, pros and amateurs alike, and only a handful were classically trained. There is a large world of such types.

While no one glories in the fact that they may have picked up bad habits (and who among us hasn’t?), most of the good players I’ve known have never cried or moaned or regretted re-training, re-calibrating, fine tuning, etc. when it was called for, because they have become lifetime lovers of the craft. I’ve never advocated learning bad technique, but I will always advocate that it is more important to do than to worry about doing it wrong.

[JeffD]

problem. new person cannot tell good teacher from bad teacher.

(other than post-mortem, "I am a bad student", "mandolin is not for me", quits in disgust. bad teacher detected. too late.).

Some ideas for you.

Look in your neighborhood for live music. A pub, a coffeehouse, many churches rent rooms and basements to regular jam sessions or occasional concerts, you get the idea. Where ever you might expect folks to be playing informally. Where ever it was you were thinking you might joint others once you could play some.

Go there and ask around. Is there anyone locally who teaches and what do you think of them etc.

Also you can go to a music store. Often the stores offer guitar lessons. Ask them if they know of any mandolin teachers in your area.

Ways that you can immediately tell a bad or at least inadequate teacher: they mostly play and teach guitar / they give you a sneer when you tell them what you want / they don't take mandolin seriously / they are ignorant of or don't respect the music you want to play / you get the idea.

[catmandu2]

I respect your opinion, cat, and some of what you write is true … the classical system is so, as you have stated. My closest encounter with that was studying horns under Mr. Morales for a few years in band. He was a classically trained, skilful teacher. But I respectfully disagree re: the dropout rate. There is a rather high dropout rate among students in formal training situations as well as among would-be folk musicians. I’m not aware of studies that compare the rates. But for this discussion I’d like to point out that many, many musicians begin and continue with no access to formal training.

I agree that what I wrote flies in the face of the fundamentals of a classical education, but in a lifetime of playing I have observed some things in people who start and don’t continue. Number one is lack of effort, despite the circumstance. Number two is attempting to learn to play an instrument that is basically not playable. I’ve known and played with hundreds of good musicians, pros and amateurs alike, and only a handful were classically trained. There is a large world of such types.

While no one glories in the fact that they may have picked up bad habits (and who among us hasn’t?), most of the good players I’ve known have never cried or moaned or regretted re-training, re-calibrating, fine tuning, etc. when it was called for, because they have become lifetime lovers of the craft. I’ve never advocated learning bad technique, but I will always advocate that it is more important to do than to worry about doing it wrong.

Well golly, I'm glad you think some of what I wrote is 'true.'

I'll concede that there are plenty of factors why people drop out of study.

... But for this discussion I’d like to point out that many, many musicians begin and continue with no access to formal training...

Was someone offering a contrary opinion on this? I haven't read the whole thread yet.