1964 Guild 1964 F-30 Special Brazilian Rosewood

[Ginridge]

Hi Friends,

I've been working on the restoration of a 1964 Guild F-30 Special Brazilian Rosewood Guitar for a friend of mine. This is a rare bird, one of the few made with Brazilian Rosewood. It came to me in terrible condition with loose and missing braces and approx. 20 cracks and splits on the guitar body, many poorly glued which I had to undo, then re-do properly.



After about a year of working on it slowly, I've completed all the body work and finish touch up and am pleased with how turned out. I had to have the original bridge reproduced since it had been significantly thinned and the saddle slot was badly modified, but I now have that ready to go as well.



The final issue will be re-setting the neck. I have not re-set a Guild neck before and am not sure how they are put together so I'm hoping someone here can share their experiences with one. I've also noticed a couple details which give me pause.

There appears be a thin, flat shim underneath the fingerboard. I have never seen this in a guitar that hadn't already had a neck set and am wondering if that is the case here. I haven't come across this in any pics I've seen of similar era Guilds (I've never come across another example of this particular guitar though).








The slight finish marks on the side of the heel may be from my own french polish touch up, I'll have to see, but I'm wondering if the heel itself looks shorter? Any information on Guild Neck set ups anyone can share and any thoughts on whether this has already been re-set would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[pops1]

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Hard to tell from pictures, but it looks to me like it had a neck reset. Whoever did it didn't get the neck down as deep in the dovetail as it should be and had to shim the fingerboard to compensate. Without measuring, is it possible you simply need to remove the neck and set it to the proper depth, or is the angle off.

[Joe Mendel]

I've done neck resets on two Guilds, I will never attempt it again. I've since been warned by several well know repairers to never attempt a neck reset on a Guild. In the case of the two I did, it was impossible to remove the necks. I tried everything I knew and everything the experts recommended. Those necks simply weren't coming off. Being too far into the repair to back out, I ended up "slipping the joint" on both of them. It's an old method that some people did before we found out how easy it is to remove a Martin neck. I removed the back binding on the upper bout to halfway around the shoulders, loosened the sides & neck block from the back, bent the neck to the correct angle, reglued the block and sides to the back, recut the binding slots, reglued the binding, then massive finish touch up. I will never attempt that repair again either.

If the one you're working on has had a previous neck set you might get lucky that it was done in a way to make the neck removable. Good Luck! You'll likely need it.

[Jonathan Ward]

FWIW, I've had good luck on the two Guild neck resets I've done (on 1970s dreadnoughts). That doesn't make me special; just means I was lucky.

The neck joint is most likely a wide dovetail that's not much narrower than the heel. (That is, nothing like a Martin.) I used the standard procedure of pulling the 14th and 15th frets, drilling into the fret slots to get as close to the vertices of the dovetail as possible, injecting steam into the holes, and then using the StewMac neck removal jig (or homebrew equivalent) to work the joint loose. The clients were happy with the results on those jobs, and the process was straightforward.

That said, it looks like disassembling that "sandwich job" under the fingerboard extension -- cleanly -- won't be any fun at all. Trying to think of how to get enough heat through to the bottom side of the shim to loosen the glue.

Guilds can be strange. A guy brought me one (another 1970s dread, rosewood back and sides) that had great big longitudinal cracks up both sides, from the endpin up into the upper bouts. There were no side braces (or any other side reinforcement) in the guitar. When somebody dropped it hard on the endpin, the cracks just took off. That was a challenging but ultimately satisfying repair.

All the Guilds I've worked on came from friends, and had sentimental value. Gifts from parents when they were kids, etc. It's hard to make a business case for doing $1,000 worth of repairs on a guitar that might sell for $450. I do them as favors and charge for materials. Figure the rest of it is tuition in my ongoing education.

[sliebers]

I reset the neck on a 70's F-50 years ago. Vowed to never touch one again. Dovetail is wider than a Martin, also not much of a gap between neck and block. To make it worse, gap was filled with some strange synthetic glue. I managed to get the neck out with steam and a jig. Took a lot longer than normal and I thought the heel was going to break.

What I remember is I started rocking the neck side to side and it started to release. Normally, the jig's pressure on the heel bottom alone will pop the neck out on a Martin. Not so with the Guild.

[Dale Ludewig]

I have an F47 from about 1970 that I bought new back then. It had been loaned to a family member for many years and when I got it back a few years ago, there were loose braces and such so I pulled the back. Reglued and shaped braces and did what Joe Mendel mentioned to try to reset the neck. That was unsatisfactory so I wound up pulling the neck. Wide dovetail. I drilled through the 15th fret slot and steamed, and steamed. And steamed. It came out. What a mess! But it's back in and the action is fine. I put a thin shim under the board on the top so the fingerboard doesn't completely change direction after it hits the body.

[sunburst]

I've re-set Guilds too and like Joe, Dale and others I was lucky enough and persistent enough to get the necks out. There are many repair people who will not touch a Guild neck re-set.
FWIW, those guitars with wide, straight dovetails that I've had apart, I converted to tapered dovetails. Perhaps some future repairer will appreciate that, or perhaps those necks will never be removed again because of warnings like this thread and from people's experience...

[Ginridge]

I have an F47 from about 1970 that I bought new back then. It had been loaned to a family member for many years and when I got it back a few years ago, there were loose braces and such so I pulled the back. Reglued and shaped braces and did what Joe Mendel mentioned to try to reset the neck. That was unsatisfactory so I wound up pulling the neck. Wide dovetail. I drilled through the 15th fret slot and steamed, and steamed. And steamed. It came out. What a mess! But it's back in and the action is fine. I put a thin shim under the board on the top so the fingerboard doesn't completely change direction after it hits the body.

Dale, you didn't work on this one, did you? Owner is from Macomb, IL but it was his father's as I recall and was out his hands for sometime.

[Ginridge]

This is both sobering and encouraging. Much like Jonathan, I'll be making significantly less than going rate for my work, but I'm tempted to try... if I think I can pull it off!

I really appreciate your insights and will continue to see what advice folks offer as I ponder all this. I do not want to get in over my head!

I can say that if this did have a neck set, the work was good enough that it's hard to tell. I do notice that it doesn't look like the finish covers the joint. Would anyone have access to a picture of the Guild dove tail joint? I've done searches of Mando cafe and Frets, but haven't seen a specific example anywhere. Thanks!

[Dale Ludewig]

Chris, I'll try to see if I took a picture of the neck joint when I had it apart. I didn't work on the one from Macomb. Only worked on this one which is mine. If I have pictures, I'll post them and any other brilliant insights I might have had while working on it. (I'm sure you can pull it off and then vow to think twice before agreeing to do anything like it again.)

[sunburst]

I already looked and I can't find any photos. Maybe I didn't take any, maybe I just can't find them...

[Dale Ludewig]

I just looked also- I can't find any photos either. I will say this: I managed to flatten the original pickguard by putting in some very hot water and and then clamping it. I was amazed at that. Thought I'd have to replace it. (It's not perfect but it'll do.)

[Ginridge]

I managed to flatten the original pickguard by putting in some very hot water and and then clamping it. I was amazed at that. Thought I'd have to replace it. (It's not perfect but it'll do.)

Thanks very much for looking, Dale and John. Very much appreciated! I'm still on the fence about this one... We'll see. I'm thinking I might be able to pull this off, but I'm just not sure and I'd hate to damage an instrument like this. I'll try your method of pick guard flattening, Dale. I have the original and the owner would like me to re-use it if possible.

[pops1]

I have also flattened pickguards with heat and clamping. I used a heat blanket, sometimes it works, sometimes only for a while, and sometimes not much.

[Dave Richard]

I've re-set Guilds too and like Joe, Dale and others I was lucky enough and persistent enough to get the necks out. There are many repair people who will not touch a Guild neck re-set.
FWIW, those guitars with wide, straight dovetails that I've had apart, I converted to tapered dovetails. Perhaps some future repairer will appreciate that, or perhaps those necks will never be removed again because of warnings like this thread and from people's experience...

John, just to confirm: You found some Guilds with straight dovetails(as opposed to tapered)? I've run into those on '70's era Gibsons, but was not aware Guild used them too.

I've only done one Guild reset, on a '70's D-25. I'd heard the wide Guild heels were difficult to separate: I lucked out, and it released without undo steam or time. If I do another, I will use my StewMac Heat Stick, which I've found to work very well, especially in those nasty Gibson straight dovetails.

[sliebers]

John, just to confirm: You found some Guilds with straight dovetails(as opposed to tapered)? I've run into those on '70's era Gibsons, but was not aware Guild used them too.

I've only done one Guild reset, on a '70's D-25. I'd heard the wide Guild heels were difficult to separate: I lucked out, and it released without undo steam or time. If I do another, I will use my StewMac Heat Stick, which I've found to work very well, especially in those nasty Gibson straight dovetails.

Dave, what soldering iron do you use with the Heat Stick? There were two versions if I remember correctly? Any problems drilling and patching the larger diameter hole in the fret slot to insert the Stick? My steam nozzle is 1/16" and a fret covers the hole. I saw that Stew Mac suggests making a plug and patching the larger hole.

[Timbofood]

This is a fascinating thread for a non luthier but Guild flag waver! Back in the 70’s when I was selling them, I never knew that they had straight dovetails! Wow!

[sunburst]

John, just to confirm: You found some Guilds with straight dovetails(as opposed to tapered)? I've run into those on '70's era Gibsons, but was not aware Guild used them too.

The truth is, they all run together after a while. I know I've had to deal with those Gibson wide heel, straight dovetail necks and I may be confusing those with the Guild wide heel necks.
(People bring me guitars that I've "never seen before" and it turns out I've worked on them before... as I said, it all runs together after a while...)

FWIW, my experience with Stewmac's heat stick was not good. I went straight back to my espresso maker and steam needle.

[Bernie Daniel]

If those Guilds are generally such a problem for steaming the neck joint loose maybe removing the fret board would be a good first step? I know that introduces other problems but....

[rcc56]

Yes, removing a fingerboard extension can be a good idea when you don't know what's under it. It has to be loosened anyway.
Neck resets are not for the faint of heart. There are a thousand things that can go wrong, even if you have plenty of experience.

[Joe Mendel]

I just learned a new trick, haven't had the chance to try it yet. Cat Fox suggested rather than cutting off the FB extension, remove the 14th (or the appropriate one over the joint) and cutting a window between the 13th & 15th frets so you can get a look at the joint without damaging the integrity of the fb across the joint. Not looking forward to trying it, but it will be useful if I need to.

[HoGo]

I just learned a new trick, haven't had the chance to try it yet. Cat Fox suggested rather than cutting off the FB extension, remove the 14th (or the appropriate one over the joint) and cutting a window between the 13th & 15th frets so you can get a look at the joint without damaging the integrity of the fb across the joint. Not looking forward to trying it, but it will be useful if I need to.

If the joint is unknown on such guitar I would remove whole fingerboard. ANy window will also compromise the strength.
It's old and most likely glued with HHG so it should be straightforward job (and the finish will be hardly damaged as there are already finish cracks all along the board). Making sure I'd drill two holes for positioning pins before removal so it can be glued on in its precise original location. With fingerboard off the neck removal would be pretty easy.

[pops1]

If the joint is unknown on such guitar I would remove whole fingerboard. ANy window will also compromise the strength.
It's old and most likely glued with HHG so it should be straightforward job (and the finish will be hardly damaged as there are already finish cracks all along the board). Making sure I'd drill two holes for positioning pins before removal so it can be glued on in its precise original location. With fingerboard off the neck removal would be pretty easy.

+1

[Joe Mendel]

I think think the joint would be less compromised by having some long grain across the joint, plus fingerboard removal is going to entail quite a bit of touch up. It could be a pretty small window. If it is not a dovetail or mortise and tenon you'd find out with little damage to the cosmetics of the instrument. There are plenty of instruments with unknown joints. Not arguing with you Adrian, just a different line of thinking. As Dan Crary once told me "the reason they make different guitars is so we can stay up all night talking guitar trash." That probably applies to repair techniques as well.

[Ginridge]

I've posted about this guitar on several sites, but wanted to circle back around here and tell "the rest of the story" as it were. Thanks to everyone who pitched in with comments and advice!

First of all, a correction: this is actually a 1967 Guild F-30 Special, not a '64. The owner had the date wrong, but apparently Guild did a limited run of these guitars in 1967. It has been a very long and slow restoration, but I completed everything 2 days ago and have had the guitar strung up and have been playing it, tweaking the action ever since.

Well, I'm delighted to say that the 1967 Guild F-30 NT Special is a stunning instrument!

As promised, I have many shots to share. My standard work routine was to go forward until I found something I wasn't sure how to deal with, then stop, research and try out the appropriate technique on other, less valuable instruments until I felt comfortable enough to try it on the Guild. That's one reason this took so long!

As it turns out there were loose braces, top and back, as well as a missing back brace and a damaged one. I was able to re-glue and re-enforce the many splits (8 on the top, 8 on the back, 2 on the sides). The superglued cracks had all failed, but I was able to scrape off the top glue and remove the glue inside the cracks with a solvent that didn't damage the finish. I re-glued them and cleated them from inside to stabalize the structural integrity of the guitar.

It did need a neck re-set which proved to be challenging. This guitar has a dovetail shaped tendon, not an actual dovetail joint (so the joint doesn't naturally pull the heel together). The info I learned here on Guild neck joints was as the best I found anywhere, but I was still going in somewhat blind. I did try a heat stick but that simply didn't have enough heat to loosen the size of the Guild heel and joint so I eventually went to steam. It took a bit of time and work to remove, but did ultimately come off clean. In the process, I learned that the neck had NOT been re-set previously as I suspected, but that the mahogany veneer under the fingerboard was actually an original Guild feature from the NJ days. It took some time to adjust and then re-seat the neck properly, but I worked slowly and was eventually able to get it to fit correclty. I had made a point of doing about 8 neck sets earlier this year to bone up for this one so I was as prepared as I could be. I'm pleased to say that the neck set did work out well though I did sweat some serious bullets!

I was able to measure the bridge slot location on the replacement bridge I'd had built and Andy Birko (Birkonium CNC) was kind enough to route the appropriate slot for me when he did a batch of vintage style Washburn replacement bridges for me (I have a small number of perfect CNC made Washburn flattened pyramid bridges if anyone needs one).

While I had been able to repair the body without having to touch up the finish, when I removed the neck there was minor damage to the finish so I decided to do a fair amount of drop filling before doing a light french polish to seal the finish. Of course, once you start drop filling, it's hard to stop! That said, the finish turned out very well. I left enough minor flaws to look original but fixed enough damage to stabilize the guitar and finish.

Here's the list of the work I did on this guitar:

Top:
Removed, cleaned, flattened and saved original pickguard
Removed old glue from 8 top splits
Clean, re-glued and leveled and 8 top splits
Installed 10 cleats to stabilize top cracks.
Repaired binding separations at waist on Bass and Treble sides
Re-glued loose braces
Drop filled damaged finish
Prepped, micro meshed top finish

Sides:
Removed glue from long side split
Cleaned, re-glued long side split
Installed cleats to stabilize crack
Cleaned up and drop filled large damaged area near end pin
Drop filled and sanded out large split and damaged areas
Micro meshed and polished sides

Back:
Removed and repaired damaged back brace using wood from another damaged brace
Cut new back brace to original dimensions and tapering, glued in place
Removed old glue from 8 back splits.
Cleaned, re-glued and leveled 8 major back splits
Re-glued 2 back braces
Installed 25 cleats to stabilize back breaks and cracks
Glued three additional loose back braces
Drop filled damaged areas and cracks
Micro meshed and polished the back

Additional work:
*Fingerboard cleaned, treated and polished
*Frets leveled, crowned and polished
*Additional drop fill finish work
*French polish top, back and sides
to blend in repairs and seal finish
*Removed and replaced bridge with perfect copy
*Routed saddle slot
*Re-set Neck
*Headstock veneer re-glued
*Flattened, cleaned and re-installed
original pickguard
*Cut new bone compensated saddle
*Final set up, tweak action

Final Action:
Low E string 3/32" @ the 12th fret, High E 2/32" @ the 12th fret.

All in all turned out to be an amazing instrument. The tone is massive, clear with brilliant highs and a full, rich, low end. The body size is slightly larger than my Collings OM, but the tone is considerably deeper, yet retains the brilliant highs of a concert sized guitar. It plays beautifully.

I'll add in a series of Before, During and After shots in the following posts.