Help on counting this phrase

[timrobwall]

This is from Vince Guaraldi's incredibly beautiful Cast Your Fate to the Wind. Rather than learn it by ear, I'm wondering how you would count it. Thanks. Tim

[Jim Bevan]

1 + 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a 1 + a 2 + 3...

[David L]

This is a weird transcription. My copy of the sheet music has the first eighth-note as a pickup, then the barline. The groups of quarter-note triplets actually starts at the beginning of the measure. The quarter-note triplets (sometimes called "drag" triplets) can be counted like any set of triplets. The trick is to stretch them out evenly and not just play two dotted notes and a straight note. I play this on a regular basis on the piano. Not only are the slow triplets tricky, but you have to keep the syncopated left hand part steady throughout.

[timrobwall]

What you say re. the sheet music actually makes more sense and better organizes the score. Are these not eighth note triplets? For counting purposes, I was thinking of the quarter notes as tied eighth notes, if you follow. I'm not a piano player nor a very good reader. And yes, I can see how the steady left hand underneath the melody can be very challenging. We'll have the bass player do that, and double track the mandolin for the lead.

[Marguerite]

Actually, those are 1/4 triplets, so it would be easier to read if it was written in this way. However, the triplets would go over the measure bar, that's why it has to be noted in such an awkward form.

[timrobwall]

Ah. Yes, now I see what you and David are saying. Thank you. That’s very helpful.

[Simon DS]

[timrobwall]

Broken link

[Tom Haywood]

Tef file attached.

[Tom Haywood]

Here is an easy solution. The Tef file is a Tabledit file I created from the OP's post. One way to get the counting is to type the notation into a tef file for playback. Turn on the metronome so you can hear all four down beats in each measure. I had to look up another score to have confidence that it is in 4/4 Time. Still no real confidence in the count, because I don't know where the two measures occur in the score or what the notes in the second measure are tied to.

Print the Tef score so you can see and write on the paper the down beats and the back beats. 1+2+3+4+. You can add e's and a's etc if needed to clarify where the melody notes are.

What about the triplet indication? Since there are only two notes in each specified "triplet", I interpret that to mean that the rhythm is a "blues shuffle" type feel. You could add the count for that. Or, in Tabledit go to MIDI ---> MIDI Options and set the Syncopation to Swing Eights or Jazz Eighths. Without hearing the particular recording, there is no way to know how close this arrangement is to what Guaraldi played.

[journeybear]

I'm thinking - Forget the notation, play it by ear. He's playing a 4/4 rhythm with his left hand, and the triplet figure is set against that, producing a natural syncopation. He does it three times, until the main melody (or refrain) kicks in, with a steady beat. I don't even know how to write that. Well, actually, I guess I do (with another staff), but in the time it would take to sort that out, you should be able to get it by ear. I hope!

[timrobwall]

I'm thinking - Forget the notation, play it by ear. He's playing a 4/4 rhythm with his left hand, and the triplet figure is set against that, producing a natural syncopation. He does it three times, until the main melody (or refrain) kicks in, with a steady beat. I don't even know how to write that. Well, actually, I guess I do (with another staff), but in the time it would take to sort that out, you should be able to get it by ear. I hope!

yep. That's always an option

[mandocello8]

i would agree, forget trying to count it, play it by ear (by feeling). the piano man plays it in time, his downbeat is in time (try to walk to his music!), but melody does not match the rhythm in any obvious way. google "yogi berra explains jazz".

[Simon DS]

Interesting, though I'm still not sure which part of the tune we're talking about, anyone have a time on vid?

I'd count it with pick direction after having nailed down the general, overall rhythm patterns using a recording.
I guess 'feeling' means having listened to, and muscle-memoried many different rhythms and pick direction patterns of tunes in a similar genre.
Sounds about right.
It would be cool to have an AI metronome that could handle this - spits out patterns.

The metronomes we use are soooo stupid!
-like 300 years later...

It does make sense to learn to count (rationally), I'm just starting that in 7/8 time and it really helps
-try dancing to a tune while counting 1234, 123 It's pretty cool once it sinks into the old grey matter.

(feels like suddenly learning to use two hands on the piano at the same time, nice relaxed, balanced feeling)

[Tjspahr1]

Rhythmically, it feels like part of the intro to "Josie" by Steely Dan.

[catmandu2]

All the rage of samba and bossa in jazz in the 40s, 50s, 60s, this is your characteristic application - it's a variant of habanera, a popular and widespread form of tresillo/cinquillo 'cross-rhythm' from the Congo, Ghana, Haiti and Havana and being assimilated in jazz and popular music (notated in either 2/4 or 6/8). It's what Jelly Roll Morton called, "the Spanish tinge."

[timrobwall]

All the rage of samba and bossa in jazz in the 40s, 50s, 60s, this is your characteristic application - it's a variant of habanera, a popular and widespread form of tresillo/cinquillo 'cross-rhythm' from the Congo, Ghana, Haiti and Havana and being assimilated in jazz and popular music (notated in either 2/4 or 6/8). It's what Jelly Roll Morton called, "the Spanish tinge."

This is so interesting. Thank you! I read that Vince Guaraldi was very influenced by Brazilian and Cuban music and rhythms. It always seemed like Cast Your Fate had a “Latin” feel.

[timrobwall]

Rhythmically, it feels like part of the intro to "Josie" by Steely Dan.

Yep. The same quarter note triplet feel at one point. Good ear!

[timrobwall]

[QUOTE=Simon DS;1932001]Interesting, though I'm still not sure which part of the tune we're talking about, anyone have a time on vid?

It starts right at the beginning of the melody, about 8 seconds in, after four bars of (left hand) intro.

[catmandu2]

This is so interesting. Thank you! I read that Vince Guaraldi was very influenced by Brazilian and Cuban music and rhythms. It always seemed like Cast Your Fate had a “Latin” feel.

Ya it's where everything comes from - from shuffle to rock 'n roll - jelly roll said it's the basis of jazz. Afro-caribbean music is extremely prevasive in American forms. Definitely my favorite.

But in terms of counting, most every culture employs a duple meter of some sort. Once you cross 3 and 2, the stylistic conventions and individual inventions will influence how each note value is weighted; it's simple notation, but actual note values vary with style and tradition.