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Thread: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

  1. #1
    Registered User belbein's Avatar
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    Default Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    I'm having a real problem with sensitivity to the shrillness ("schrillheit"? "shrillidad"?) of the "E" strings. I don't hear it on every mando I play, but on literally 90% of them. I've just about decided it must be something about the harmonics and my hearing that makes it nails-on-chalkboard to me, since it is so universal and doesn't seem to bother anyone else like it bothers me.

    I'm wondering (1) if anyone else has this problem and (2) how you solved it and (3) if this is a string issue: is there some other material of strings that would string mellow my e strings out a little?
    belbein

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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    I don't think there's much can be done with strings - a plain e string is a plain e string pretty much. It does vary a lot from instrument to instrument as there are some specific frequencies that we hear as "shrill". Take a look at this video:



    There's some playing pretty far up the neck, but it never sounds shrill to me. Part of that is the instruments, part the outstanding players involved. Indeed one could argue that the mark of fine mandolin, and a fine player, is the ability to play up there and keep everything sounding sweet.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    This shrillility thing has me wondering:
    - what happens when this guy and this guy do a concert together?
    - exactly how many kilo-hurts does it take to crack your head? Is there a specific tinnitus resonance to hit?

    Because, seriously now, tinnitus is the thing most connected to shrillitation, IMHO.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Take up the bass.

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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Hi Belbein,

    I,too, hear what you are hearing. I find that I can control it to a major degree with picking technique, but I'd be hard-pressed to put into words exactly what I do differently to control it. It really is a matter of hearing it, saying to myself "there it is again", and then stopping it from occurring. And that really does work for me, but how, I am not quite sure. For me, listening very carefully as I play is a big determinant in my tonal quality. Maybe it comes more naturally for others, I really couldn't say.

    The other factor for me is the strings. I find e-string shrillness more difficult to control on some brands than others. The brand that gives me the greatest difficulty is SIT Lights. I have tried them on a couple of instruments and the problem has persisted, so it's not one specific instrument. Again, I don't know why, and that might just be me. I really don't mean to be disrespectful to their product, but that is my experience. I don't think it's just an issue with their strings being light as I don't have this issue with other light strings.

    I'll be very interested in following this thread and learning what others have to say. I'm glad you posted it.

    Best wishes, Bob
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    Registered User belbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    What's frustrating is that on two occassions I've played mandolins that weren't shrill. I tried to buy one of those and couldn't make the deal work. The other was way out of my price range. But it doesn't seem to be a quality thing. Even my cheap POS "Luna" on which I did the set up isn't as shrilly as my Gibson, nor was the very cheap Crafter that I played the other night (though both were somewhat shrill).

    Bob: So what strings do you find to be least shrilly?

    Bertram, you may be right. I do have a touch of tinnitis. In fact, all of the musicians in my family have it, and both a violin player and a cello player both stopped playing in their 50s or so because the "vibrations" "hurt." So maybe it's the peculiar frequency of these particular strings that really literally does grate on my nerves.

    So here's a whacko question which will reveal my abject ignorance of physics. Is it possible to tune to "e" in the second octave above middle "c" with a string that allows a lower tension string? I know it's all herz and wavelengths and periodicity and all that jazz, but I just need a simple, laymen's "yes" or "no."
    belbein

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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Belbein,

    JazzMandos are the least shrill for me. That's one of the reasons I like them so much.

    Bob
    Purr more, hiss less. Barn Cat Mandolins Photo Album

  8. #8

    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Brad, for what it's worth, classical violinists rarely play the open "E" because it doesn't blend well with the other notes. Typically the note is played on the A string (i.e., 7th fret on the A string). I do the same thing on mandolin... I never play the open E string unless I want it to jangle a bit- such as in the Mill Valley Waltz.

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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    How about you get yourself a nice mandola?

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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    how do you hold your pick? when I started mando, I played with the point of the pick, and my tone, especialy on the E, was not pleasing to the ear. I switched to playing with the rounded shoulder of the pick, and enjoy the tone much more. YMMV
    I laid the tracks, never rode the train.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Is it the tone/timbre/frequency of the string or are there any other factors? I wonder what it was about the mandolins that were not shrill. What were they?

    I find that the way that the nut and saddle slots (esp the latter) are cut can make a difference. You might have that checked out. Some mandolins I have had just needed the angle that string breaks over the saddle changed.

    What mandolin are you playing? The majority of mandolins in the US are geared to bluegrass and those are voiced to emphasis those high frequencies. Maybe you should try some other style, like an non-x-braced oval hole or a flattop. Big difference there.

    Worse come to absolute worse, switch to mandola -- no e course there.
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Quote Originally Posted by belbein View Post
    Is it possible to tune to "e" in the second octave above middle "c" with a string that allows a lower tension string?
    Yep, all you have to do is take the e strings from a lighter set of strings than g, d and a. Lighter string -> less tension.
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    Old Guy Mike Scott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    I am sure you have already experimented with this, but I think (at least in my hacker playing experience) that mando/pick/string combo all play into the e string shrillness. On those mandolins that I couldn't get the e string tone I wanted, I parted with until I found what I wanted. The quest, however, is never ending.
    Thanks

    Several mandolins of varying quality-any one of which deserves a better player than I am.......

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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Yep, all you have to do is take the e strings from a lighter set of strings than g, d and a. Lighter string -> less tension.
    IME, lighter strings always have a tinnier, shriller sound. If you want a fatter tone, you should use at least mediums.

  17. #15
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoj View Post
    IME, lighter strings always have a tinnier, shriller sound. If you want a fatter tone, you should use at least mediums.
    Frankly, I think it's pick choice that makes the most difference, not strings (what difference can a piece of steel wire make, anyway), but Mr. B. wanted a simple yes/no to his question. Never contradict a lawyer
    And even if the problem is fixed with his own instrument - somebody else with a different setup will come along and makes his ears ring. What about Selectone-K earplugs?
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  18. #16

    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    I have an old Kentucky that tends to this e-shrillness. I removed the second string and, while not perfect, it sounds less harsh.

  19. #17
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Brad, what strings are you playing now? You might try a set of Elixers with the heavy coating on them. Seems like most all steel E strings are plain steel, which to my ear has some harsh overtones. B strings too, but they don't seem to sound as piercing. I do think different instruments amplify those frequencies in different ways. There may be some different steel blends in different brands of strings. There are also the "silk and steel strings". They may have plain steel E strings, but overall they sound much softer. I would start by trying different sets to see if anything is more pleasing to your ears and to your instrument. All of the other suggestions in this thread play into it as well.
    Tom

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  20. #18

    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Hi Belbein,

    I have the same issue. Pick technique, thickness, and point can help but sometimes to me the e's seem to ring louder and more metallic sounding than the other strings. While I have noticed some small differences between string brands I have an easy cheap fix that worked for me.
    With scissors cut a small sliver of masking tape, 1/8 inch or less, and fold it sticky side to sticky side across the e strings in front of the bridge. Trim off excess. If you slide the tape up tight to the bridge it will very slightly damp the ringing of the e's. If you slide the tape a half inch or so away from the bridge the muting effect is much more noticeable. Adjust to your preference.
    While not cosmetically ideal I have even blackened the tape with a Sharpie to hide it. Hope this helps.

    Scott

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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    I'm glad this subject has come up. For the record, I do have tinnitis, thanks to overly loud music in my youth. So I'm not sure if that is a factor here. But I have been aggravated at the shrill quality of my E strings, and to a lesser extent, my A strings too.

    I was thinking that this was a problem with my mandolin. It's almost like a chiming sound that accompanies the note played on the string. I thought maybe my action was too low and it was somehow ringing off the frets (not really buzzing, but ... chiming is the best way I can describe it). Even after raising my action, the problem still persists. It's driving me nuts and I don't know how to fix it. I'm not skilled enough to start jacking with the nut, reshaping the bridge, adjusting the saddle slots, or other tricks which might make it go away (even though I understand the concepts well enough). At this point, I'm still unsure if it's just a problem with my mandolin or if it's a personal problem with my ears. All I know is that it's making me crazy. The E string is the worst offender.

    I may try the masking tape trick next to the bridge, just for giggles.

  22. #20

    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Tobin,

    I've described the sound elsewhere as "steel mosquito", a metallic sounding whining of the e's. The tape trick really works and if you have some masking tape and two minutes it's free and easy to undo. I originally thought it would overly mute the strings but the effect is quite subtle.

    Scott

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    F,C,G,D ... is still a set of 5ths intervals only the names are changed..
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    Gilchrist (pick) Owner! jasona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    Use a Proplec or Dawg pick
    Jason Anderson

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  25. #23

    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    If the problem is caused by your action or set up, it's likely to occur on the A string too - in fact, I think it may be more likely on the open A string since that one is so floppy. You can actually hear a pretty clear example of this on the John Reischman video in the other thread, listen to his open As and Es. Ouch.

    Oops, did I just suggest JR's mando is fallible? Gosh I think I did. [Steps back]



    Whenever this has happened to me, it's always been fixed by a person doing something unmentionable to a thing he called my "truss rod".

  26. #24

    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    For shame!

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strings--specifically, shrill "E"s

    I've also heard what I think you're describing and have sometimes been able to improve things by retuning the e strings by ear (perhaps you do this already) with attention to minimizing this "shrillness". If I succeed, I usually find that the 2 strings are not tuned identically (as measured by my electronic tuner) by a small amount. But nonetheless, it sounds better to me, so I leave it tuned that way. YMMV

    Don't know if I'm getting some overtones 'out of phase' with each other & cancelling out something, or whether I've invoked the placebo effect.
    Phil

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