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Thread: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    I've had my mandolin for a month and a half now. I has been frustrating for me because, while I am no great shakes at all as a guitar player, on mandolin I am very much so a beginner all over again.

    One of my biggest frustrations, both back when I was a beginner guitar player and now that I'm a beginner-all-over-again mandolin player, is playing cleanly. I'm finding that the mandolin is much more sensitive to correct fingering, and if you don't finger the note right AT the fret then the mandolin makes some very unmusical sounds.

    So I've begun starting every practice session by playing scales for an extended period. Now you can play an open scale using just your index, middle, and ring fingers, but I make a point of using my pinky and going all the way up to the 7th fret on every course. Sometimes I'll even do middle-ring-pinky runs up and down the courses, just to exercise the hell out of my pinky.

    And it's probably going to lead to some bad habits down the road, but to paraphrase a famous guitar maxim "There's no money after the 7th fret." I make a point to go up to the 7th fret, but unless I'm stretching for one of those "Bill Monroe must have HATED mandolin players" chop chords then I don't make an effort to practice further up the neck.

    And a couple of things that cross my mind every time I do my scales practice:

    "My next mandolin is gonna have GIANT frets like the Great Wall of China!"

    and

    "I wonder how much my guitar tech would charge me to scallop my mandolin's fretboard?"
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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    There are a good number of us who prefer big wide frets and/or arched finger boards. Can help one play cleaner.

    Of course the BEST thing is focused practice on tone. Can’t ever short cut that.
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    phydaux as Pete said - many of us prefer wide nut and longer scale, I have a 1920 F4 that has a very fat fretboard, I thought it would be too big, but its just right. Other than that I prefer the 1 3/8 (wide nut) inch wide fret board to the 1 1/8, I'm very clumsy and clunky on those skinny fretboards. I started on guitar and that may be the the issue, we are just used to more real estate on the fret board. Of course it would be a disservice of me not to send you down the mandola, octave, mandocello path.
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    If you have not looked at ffcp (four finger closed position) scales you should. They really rationalize the mandolin fingerboard. it is much easier to understand than the guitar fingerboard. The link below is to the jazzmando.com site which has a series of tutorials and exercises on it that are very good. These work for mandolin players in any style, not just jazz.

    http://jazzmando.com/ffcp.shtml

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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Sure, scales and other exercises to keep it fresh, I like Julin's Mandolin Exercises for Dummies (and Julin's other book)

    and the Alfred 3 volume series https://www.alfred.com/complete-mand...on/p/00-39091/

    and https://www.mandozine.com/techniques/index.html
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    So, Phydaux…you scared yet?

    Dude, you won’t go wrong spending HOURS on scales, as long as you can stand. When you get comfortable with closed position scales all over the fingerboard (please forget that BS about no $ past the 7th), and not coincidentally movable chord formations, the world is your oyster. At that up-the-fretboard point, you do need a reall6 nice comfortable setup.

    But yeah, do get rock solid in the first position. Some nights, especially if you enjoy alcoholic beverages, you will want to stick there. But the cool thing about mando is that with that short scale length, everything is within reach. It’s good to do a lot of pinky workouts.
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    It isn't really just about scales. It is that as you are learning your scales, you're learning your neck, and that is what the real key is. And I highly agree about any serious jazz work; if you really want to learn your neck, jazz exercises up and down the neck are excellent.

    And also, get into a weekly jam situation. Being forced in real life situations into finding note and chord positions in any key and in any octave will get you going in a big hurry, and it's also fun. Just don't forget, the goal in any jam, as with a band, is to make everyone else sound good (ie: master backup work).
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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    I guess I was unclear when I made my initial post. I知 not playing the scales for any music theory reason, or to learn the fretboard. I知 playing the scales because my play is sloppy. I知 not used to the small distance between the frets. And the frets are so low that if I知 too far away I get buzz very easily. So I知 practicing my scales for an extended period to work on my accuracy. I am working on tone and clean play.

    That was the whole reason for me starting this thread - If you have bad tone or if your play a sloppy then fix it by practicing scales.

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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    I get bored playing scales so I work on songs, playing the same 2- or 4-measure phrases over and over until I can play them smoothly. I am more likely to incorporate those phrases into my alternate melodies than I am scales, although scales are useful sometimes.

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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    I like scales in this instance because it exercises all my fingers equally.

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    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    I practice scales and have practiced scales for decades. Arpeggios too, all in attempt to sound good.

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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Quote Originally Posted by phydaux View Post
    I guess I was unclear when I made my initial post. I’m not playing the scales for any music theory reason, or to learn the fretboard. I’m playing the scales because my play is sloppy. I’m not used to the small distance between the frets. And the frets are so low that if I’m too far away I get buzz very easily. So I’m practicing my scales for an extended period to work on my accuracy. I am working on tone and clean play.

    That was the whole reason for me starting this thread - If you have bad tone or if your play a sloppy then fix it by practicing scales.
    Right. It is, for me, much harder to play cleanly than guitar. What has kind of helped, for me, is doing right hand exercises separately, so that when I practice scales and arpeggios etc I can concentrate more on left hand issues.

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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    dear original poster,
    for clean tone production, check your left hand for how you address the mandolin. There are as many approaches to this as there are mandolin players, so have your grains of salt ready before taking anyone's guidance to heart...
    I advocate aiming in the space between frets as opposed to over a fret. You'll want to use the minimum amount of pressure to be good to your hands. We aspire to having the fretting finger perpendicular(90degrees) to the fretboard, akin to what piano students are encouraged to do striking the keys. I say aspire because we can't really attain that 90 degree thing, not physically practical. The idea is that the fingers aim down toward the board and are not allowed to flatten out, that's what causes unwanted sounds, dampening of tone, and hand pain. Biggest aid I've found in achieving the favorable angle aiming down toward the frets is checking your thumb position behind the neck. If your thumb comes up, over, around the neck and fretboard you will kill your hand, hamper flexibility, inadvertently mute notes, and generally be less able to play clean at quicker tempi. Another way to put that is you don't want to squeeze the neck as you would a baseball bat or support the instrument in the manner the fiddle players call "pancake hand". The classical guitar people imagine a line in the middle of the back of the neck then do not allow the thumb to cross that line. We can't do that on the mandolin because the neck is too small. So try resting the thumb gently where that line would be but sure enough some thumb will show above the fretboard. Try not to let that wrap around too much.
    Another thing to try is to see how much sound you can get from a fretted note without the pick. Start by picking each string you play on, followed by notes produced with left hand pressure. After a bit of that lose the pick altogether and see what happens. Please do this gingerly so as to not hurt the small muscles in your fingers.The whole thing is about cultivating a light touch, an accurate placement, and relaxed at all times.
    To your point about technique vs. theory/fretboard knowledge (even above the 7th fret), the main thing that makes the mandolin the greatest of all instruments is it's symmetrical design or layout--by virtue of being tuned in fifths, scale patterns and chord shapes are consistent over the entire fretboard. Learn a major scale with all fretted notes for example, and you know all your major scales. There is no need to shy away from playing in all keys all over the neck. There is $ (lots!) above fret 7, and more importantly that's where all the fun is.
    Whether you are figuring out best tone production or fretboard routes, be sure to keep it fun. When you hear folks talking about "conquering the beast" or you have to do repetitious activity for 37 hours a day X 14 years, that's all BS. It's fun, It's music, It's the mandolin, it's you speaking and singing through your mandolin.

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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    The concern about frets may be indicating that the strings might not be positioned accurately. String height is also affected by the neck angle and it is usually not a problem on expensive instruments where the 'set up' is much more accurate. I'd find a good repair person that knows mandolins, not just guitars.
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Quote Originally Posted by phydaux View Post
    I've had my mandolin for a month and a half now. I has been frustrating for me because, while I am no great shakes at all as a guitar player, on mandolin I am very much so a beginner all over again.
    A good rule of thumb: It takes about a decade to sound like you have been playing ten years.

    And a corollary: Past experience with an entirely different instrument doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the rule of thumb. Maybe sometimes, maybe a little, but not really enough or often enough to depend on.
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    Worlds ok-ist mando playr Zach Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Quote Originally Posted by phydaux View Post
    I've had my mandolin for a month and a half now. I has been frustrating for me because, while I am no great shakes at all as a guitar player, on mandolin I am very much so a beginner all over again.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    And a corollary: Past experience with an entirely different instrument doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the rule of thumb. Maybe sometimes, maybe a little, but not really enough or often enough to depend on.
    You beat me to it Jeff! I was going to say:

    Remember, you're learning how to play a fretted fiddle, not a tiny guitar.

    Good luck in your Mando-journey
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post

    And a corollary: Past experience with an entirely different instrument doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the rule of thumb. Maybe sometimes, maybe a little, but not really enough or often enough to depend on.
    Thumb is all thumbs on this one, I'm afraid.

    Having prior musical experience on any instrument is often tremendously helpful in learning a second instrument.

    Secondly, for those fortunate to be prior violin/fiddle players - in addition to guitar experience - taking up mndln is low-hanging fruit. After adjusting to the ergonomics, you'll likely take off very easily. At least, this is what I hear from other fiddling guitarists, as well as my personal experience.

    Re, scales. Yes, practice scale studies.

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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    And I forgot to say - I totally agree with the first item - on the decade.

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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Regarding set up, I bought the mandolin from Elderly Instruments, and they do a set up on all their mandolins before shipping. I am actually very happy with the action on my mandolin.

    Regarding ergonomics, this is how I determine my playing position - I start by sitting upright on the edge of a chair with my feet flat on the floor. With my shoulders and arms relaxed, I turn my left palm to face outward and my right palm to face in. I pinch my right thumb and index finger together. Flexing only my right bicep, I bring my right arm parallel to the floor, then bring it across my body. Where my index finger & thumb end up, that's where the bottom of the fretboard goes. I then flex only my left bicep, bringing my left hand all the way up. That's where the neck goes. I adjust my strap so that my mandolin hangs in that position.

    When I'm playing, I use my left thumb on the back of the neck to apply a little bit of pressure, pushing the neck lightly away from my body until the strap is pulling it back. That keeps the neck fully immobile, keeps my wrist relaxed and straight, and allows my fingers to stay relaxed and move easily across the fretboard.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Quote Originally Posted by phydaux View Post
    Regarding set up, I bought the mandolin from Elderly Instruments, and they do a set up on all their mandolins before shipping. I am actually very happy with the action on my mandolin.

    Regarding ergonomics, this is how I determine my playing position - I start by sitting upright on the edge of a chair with my feet flat on the floor. With my shoulders and arms relaxed, I turn my left palm to face outward and my right palm to face in. I pinch my right thumb and index finger together. Flexing only my right bicep, I bring my right arm parallel to the floor, then bring it across my body. Where my index finger & thumb end up, that's where the bottom of the fretboard goes. I then flex only my left bicep, bringing my left hand all the way up. That's where the neck goes. I adjust my strap so that my mandolin hangs in that position.

    When I'm playing, I use my left thumb on the back of the neck to apply a little bit of pressure, pushing the neck lightly away from my body until the strap is pulling it back. That keeps the neck fully immobile, keeps my wrist relaxed and straight, and allows my fingers to stay relaxed and move easily across the fretboard.
    I am not saying you are doing it all wrong, only that I can't really get a sense of what you are doing by the way you are describing it. However, in one case, unless you are describing it wrong, positioning the left thumb on the *back of the neck* is a guitar technique and in most cases is not proper technique for mandolin. Also, you should not be using your left hand to keep the neck immobile.

    In any case, this guy has it pretty much right and he sounds pretty good when he plays...

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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Quote Originally Posted by phydaux View Post
    ... to paraphrase a famous guitar maxim "There's no money after the 7th fret." I make a point to go up to the 7th fret, but unless I'm stretching for one of those "Bill Monroe must have HATED mandolin players" chop chords then I don't make an effort to practice further up the neck.
    [/I]
    I think it depends what you want to play. You'll note that mandolin is tuned same as violin/fiddle. It's true that many Bluegrass and trad Scottish/Irish/English/European fiddle tunes don't go above the 7th fret (4th finger 1st position, pitch B on the E string). There are some that go to 10th fret E string (D, 4th finger 3rd position) a smaller number that go to 12 fret (E octave), and a very few higher. However should you have a mind to play any Baroque music, you'll find that playing in the 3rd position range to the 12th fret with an 'extension' (ie stretching out your 4th finer) to the 14th is very common - let's leave out Vivaldi and various Baroque violin virtuosos for the moment, because they wrote high up the dusty end even then. If like me, you're playing inexpensive mandolin/s, you may find that, like mine, they sustain OK to about the 14th but tend to just go 'plink' higher, so there may be diminishing returns above there.

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: So I guess I'll practice scales some more....

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    A good rule of thumb: It takes about a decade to sound like you have been playing ten years.
    I think about this all the time. It helps keep this newbie from getting frustrated and impatient.

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