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Thread: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

  1. #1

    Default Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Hello,

    I’ve got this incredibly ornate mandolin that I’m looking to identify the maker of. It has a violin scroll headstock with fancy carvings, inlaid tuners with tortoise buttons, a tortoise celluloid fingerboard, and tortoise covered neck. The body has intricate pearl inlays and more celluloid as well as F holes which seemed odd. The back and sides have fine detail carving and the body thickness is somewhere between a normal bent top mandolin and a bowlback.

    The label seems to read Peter S____ III

    Any help would be appreciated. I would love to know more about the builder and what other work he has done

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  3. #2
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    That looks pretty cool.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Reminds me of some of the mandolins we have seen from A Monzino out of Milano.
    Though I'm not sure if these all were actually made by Monzino.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Reminds me of some of the mandolins we have seen from A Monzino out of Milano.
    Though I'm not sure if these all were actually made by Monzino.

    Mick
    That said...the ornamental scratchplate and inlay seems much more Sicilian in origin than Milanese.

    The large size frets seem out of place to me. Maybe a refretting at some time?

    Mick
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  6. #5

    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    The original fretboard must have been ‘decorated’ so sure, a recent-era replacement. Bound, with side dots. The F holes necessary to the design as there’s no room for an oval. The huge amount of deep carving probably is not in the interest of good sound, so maybe an exposition model, or some kind of a royal gift.
    Intriguing.

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  8. #6

    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    With the name Peter- and it is a shame the rest of his name is not legible, I would begin by looking for a German maker- be it in Germany or across the border of Saxony, into Bohemia. If you can photograph the label that would be great but if it offers no clues as this is an f hole instrument, then don't worry about it.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    With the name Peter- and it is a shame the rest of his name is not legible, I would begin by looking for a German maker- be it in Germany or across the border of Saxony, into Bohemia. If you can photograph the label that would be great but if it offers no clues as this is an f hole instrument, then don't worry about it.
    Peter, Pietro, Pedro might also be a German dealer who re-labeled an Sicilian mandolin...perhaps after adding / carving additional ornament.

    Mick
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  12. #8
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    As NickR asked, if there was any way to photograph the label, that might help a bit. Also where re you located and/or where did you find this mandolin. I am guessing in Europe and not the US.
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  13. #9

    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Sincere apologies I didn’t notice the label photo failed to attach. The fingerboard is dark tortoise celluloid as well and I suspect the frets may be bar frets.

    I am in the central US and the instrument came most recently from an antiques dealer in Atlanta. I’m at least two people removed from the dealer so I have no information there.

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  14. #10

    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    The surname appears to begin with Sch which suggests a Germanic name while the III is possibly an Americanism- if the mandolin is from Atlanta- while the case is definitely American. It could be the owner as it is not obviously a maker or dealer label. I agree that elements of the mandolin do suggest Italy or Sicily and it is frustrating that the signature is so florid, as it is hard to work out the name.

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  16. #11
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    That label helps quite a bit. I am convinced that the name was Peter Schuchmann. There is a mention of him on this post on the Bowlbacks of Note thread. These posts reference one of Eugene Braig's Vega mandolins and Graham McDonald mentions this:

    Peter Schuchmann was the director of the Schuchmann School of Music of Oak Park Illinois and Vega quoted him in Cadenza adverts around 1908.

    He noted that his "trade was strictly high class, and the Special Mandolins which you have made for me during the past few years have been a source of satisfaction to me and my pupils." These might well be the source of the ones Eugene has seen.
    However, I highly doubt that the OP's mandolin was made by Vega. Even the most ornate Vega mandolins were a bit more understated. I would guess Mr. Schuchmann might have ordered other makers to make mandolins with his branding and could have found luthiers in Catania or other parts of Italy.

    The only Peter Schuchmann mandolin I have in my files is pictured below. Luckily the seller of this one included photos of the PS's signature so we can be pretty certain that this one was commissioned by the same Schuchmann. The signature is pretty close to the one on the one in my files though it looks like he decided to use a treble-clef-like S for his signature. The rest looks very close.

    One of the few makers of that time who made mandolins with violin-like scrolled pegheads (way before Lyon & Healy) was John Brandt of Chicago, IL. So it would make a lot of sense that PS would order mandolins from a maker near to him. There is a Brandt label inside this one in my files and the shape of the scratchplate and the construction of the peghead and the tuners, etc. are definitely from Brandt's workshop.

    However, I am much less sure of the OP's example and still see it having construction features more like Italian instruments, especially the neck/headstock joint and the ornamentation. And though the headstock has a violin scroll, it is very different from the Brandt headstocks. I have a feeling that Schuchmann may have ordered this customized to his own taste from the luthier in Italy. This could have been his own personal instrument.
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    Last edited by Jim Garber; Dec-14-2021 at 4:25pm.
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  18. #12
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Very sleutherish of you, Jim!

    I'd enjoy seeing more images of this s_nathaniel if you have the opportunity.
    The fretboard and nut appear very out of place for a Sicilian mandolin of this era.
    They appear to be much newer...perhaps an attempt to compensate for a problem neck.
    We've seen this with Waldo mandolins, the design of which pushed the f-holes up closer to the neck / neck block potentially weakening that zone structurally translating into a slight raising of the neck angle.
    A very flashy instrument, if PS's students were playing only mere Brandt's and Vegas.
    This mandolin certainly has a very interesting legacy.

    Mick
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  20. #13

    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    I think Jim has found the identity all right and I also think that the label he has posted shows a clear attempt to create an official identifying label. What with the "tail" on the "n" I think that the OP's mandolin has a genuine signature as opposed to a formal label with his name and the Roman numeral suggests that this is number three of his own personal instruments- as opposed to one that was sold to one of his students. I have seen those tuners on Italian made mandolins but cannot currently recall the maker but I will get there in the end. The tuners do not alone identify the maker but it may be a way of getting a maker's name in the frame even if it can be discounted.

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  22. #14
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    I would guess that Mr. Schuchmann took advantage of the luthiers that had to coexist along with the budding factories building musical instruments in Chicago circa 1900. With as many people that ended up working in that industry there had to be a large number at the beginning that actually knew about building instruments from start to finish. It would appear he wanted to tap into the higher end of the market. Pretty awesome and it's another person building mandolins with F holes way before the Loar era at Gibson. Very nice.
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  24. #15

    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    I wonder if there is an impressed maker's mark on the case? Depending on the maker this may well help date the case and possibly the mandolin. The Bull's Head cases are an example where the trademark changed as the company's ownership changed and that company ( M & W) was known for its embossed leather cases. I assume the case is probably original to the mandolin but it may not be a snug fit with this sort of case. It is possible that the mandolin was commissioned from a highly European worker in the USA and is pretty much a "one off".

  25. #16
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    I wonder if there is an impressed maker's mark on the case? Depending on the maker this may well help date the case and possibly the mandolin. The Bull's Head cases are an example where the trademark changed as the company's ownership changed and that company ( M & W) was known for its embossed leather cases. I assume the case is probably original to the mandolin but it may not be a snug fit with this sort of case. It is possible that the mandolin was commissioned from a highly European worker in the USA and is pretty much a "one off".
    I think you can safely assume it was a "not too many off" or a one off. I don't recall seeing much ever here that looked like this and most carved headstocks we've seen have been from people with a connection to Europe. Some have been from Asian countries that were part of the European colonial systems.
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Very sleutherish of you, Jim!...
    He does seem to have the ability to sniff these things out doesn't he Mick?

    I'm shocked a bit. Most of these extravagant Chicago connected instruments are at least attributed to Carl and August or perhaps the Worlds Greatest Musical Instrument Manufacturer.

    Nice job Jim.
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    Default Re: Trying to identify this ornate pearl mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    He does seem to have the ability to sniff these things out doesn't he Mick?

    I'm shocked a bit. Most of these extravagant Chicago connected instruments are at least attributed to Carl and August or perhaps the Worlds Greatest Musical Instrument Manufacturer.

    Nice job Jim.
    Too funny, Mike.

    Mick
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