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Thread: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes?

    One thing I find useful as a mandolin beginner - because I play fiddle, I can generally finger the left hand OK, but have more difficulty with the right hand. Lots of trad Scottish and Irish tune shave fast triplets in them, which cause problems a) because they're faster than the tune notes and b) because if you pick alternately down and up, they'll put you on the 'wrong' pick stroke on the note following the triplet. I find you can quite convincingly fake difficult triplets by missing out the middle notes and just playing the first and third. Not a long term solution, but for now it helps.

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    One thing I find useful as a mandolin beginner - because I play fiddle, I can generally finger the left hand OK, but have more difficulty with the right hand. Lots of trad Scottish and Irish tune shave fast triplets in them, which cause problems a) because they're faster than the tune notes and b) because if you pick alternately down and up, they'll put you on the 'wrong' pick stroke on the note following the triplet. I find you can quite convincingly fake difficult triplets by missing out the middle notes and just playing the first and third. Not a long term solution, but for now it helps.
    It’s three way tugging match between clean picking, tempo and the number of notes.
    Guitars (amateur) dont tend to be too concerned about the clean picking and really love the speed, the number of notes reduces as their tempo increases, to be replaced by strumming/drumming.
    In extreme cases it’s no longer a melody.

    Melody instruments tend to be very concerned with getting the right notes but really quite relaxed with the tempo. They will often slip into rubato to try to hide the fact that they are going through a technically difficult part that perhaps needs more work for their chosen tempo.
    In extreme cases it’s no longer music.

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes?

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    I'm in Dundee, when I can afford it I'm going to get a £200 Ozark from Vintage Strings(shop here in Dundee).
    Ethan: do check out relative prices of new instruments. Here in UK they can vary enormously, and some of the more specialist shops may have better value used instruments. I'd avoid Ebay - in UK, used instruments there are generally not good value, in fact sometimes you can buy them cheaper brand new. New Ebay instruments can be a great price but comewith a terrible setup (bridge and nut height, tuning, etc.) and mandolin setup is very important. There are some specialist shops in UK that concentrate on mandolins and banjos, and although they vary, they're probably less likely to sell you an instrument with an unplayable setup than a shop which only sells the occasional mandolin and has nobody who plays the instrument. Ask them if the setup needs adjusting, and if they're going to do it - whether the mandolin is old or new. If they say something like 'Oh there's no need, they're always OK out of the box', try another shop! Sometimes you'll see a used instrument with 'As is' in the description - unless the advert says otherwise ('plays well'), that is sometimes an honest declaration that it needs work to bring up to a good playing standard, which isn't included in the price. Because mandolin string tension is high, the strings short and doubled, and the pitch high, a mandolin with a high action that doesn't play in tune will put you off playing quicker than most instruments. Tuning is often (but not always) just a matter fo bridge positioning as it floats on the top rather than being fixed. A decent mandolin setup should feel low, not 'I suppose it'll be OK'. Some budget mandolins are set up OK, some are very variable. If you know a good player, take them along, and if anyone in the shop plays well, you may be on a winner, so ask them to demonstrate. Have fun!

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Ethan: do check out relative prices of new instruments. Here in UK they can vary enormously, and some of the more specialist shops may have better value used instruments. I'd avoid Ebay - in UK, used instruments there are generally not good value, in fact sometimes you can buy them cheaper brand new. New Ebay instruments can be a great price but comewith a terrible setup (bridge and nut height, tuning, etc.) and mandolin setup is very important. There are some specialist shops in UK that concentrate on mandolins and banjos, and although they vary, they're probably less likely to sell you an instrument with an unplayable setup than a shop which only sells the occasional mandolin and has nobody who plays the instrument. Ask them if the setup needs adjusting, and if they're going to do it - whether the mandolin is old or new. If they say something like 'Oh there's no need, they're always OK out of the box', try another shop! Sometimes you'll see a used instrument with 'As is' in the description - unless the advert says otherwise ('plays well'), that is sometimes an honest declaration that it needs work to bring up to a good playing standard, which isn't included in the price. Because mandolin string tension is high, the strings short and doubled, and the pitch high, a mandolin with a high action that doesn't play in tune will put you off playing quicker than most instruments. Tuning is often (but not always) just a matter fo bridge positioning as it floats on the top rather than being fixed. A decent mandolin setup should feel low, not 'I suppose it'll be OK'. Some budget mandolins are set up OK, some are very variable. If you know a good player, take them along, and if anyone in the shop plays well, you may be on a winner, so ask them to demonstrate. Have fun!
    I actually rang up the shop the other day just to chat to them about mandolins, they've been selling all sorts of string instruments since 1998(I believe) with their founder having been a mandolin player too. Got a really friendly chap that was honest and said the cheapest ones are not worth getting even after set up and recommended a £180 A-style oval hole Ozark if I was just getting started. Set ups performed in house and he plays mandolin so can demo whenever I decide to go in.

    In that regard I got quite lucky with having a friendly and knowledgeable shop so close to home, barely a 15 minute bus ride. They may not stock Kentucky's or Rogues or any of the other known excellent names, but I trust their collective experience to steer me right.

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    ^^^Excellent advice from maxr here!^^^ Lower cost mandolins are rarely set up well (especially the nut slots) and this can make them largely unplayable. Finding a luthier/tech who really knows about setting up mandolins can be a challenge. The tolerances are much tighter and more critical. I would figure a good setup to be a part of the purchase price.

    In regards to chording behind Celtic music, it's different than other genres. Very few accomplished rhythm players lay out a constant stream of full chords on the beat. It's more artful to walk diads and triads up and down the neck that support the melody, perhaps droning the root of the chord where appropriate. Watch and listen to what a good bouzouki player does behind the melody instruments, it's quite an education. This may have been behind some of the recommendations of an octave mandolin. It can allow you do some chording in the lower register. When capo'd at the 5th fret it plays as a mandola which gives you fret spacings more conducive to plunking out melody. Enjoy the journey!

    Edit: just read what you posted while I was typing. How fortunate you are. It sounds like a good shop and his recommendation of an oval hole fits the feel of the music well.

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Sounds like you've got a good shop there Ethan, especially as it's local!

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Rob’s most excellent free ebook for mando setup.
    It’s worth buying, and working on a cheap Rogue just to be able to get intimate with your instrument:
    http://jazzmando.com/tips/archives/002490.shtml

    -you cant get more local than your own kitchen table!

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    ...they've been selling all sorts of string instruments since 1998(I believe) with their founder having been a mandolin player too...
    I gather that's supposed to be a long time ago...?

    Jeez, now I really do feel ancient. In 1998 I'd been playing mandolin ±30 years.
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    I gather that's supposed to be a long time ago...?

    Jeez, now I really do feel ancient. In 1998 I'd been playing mandolin ±30 years.
    That'd mean I was born a "long time ago" and I'm not quite ready for that at 23 thank you very much XD I just mean that 20 odd years running the shop and 20+ years of playing trad music gives them more experience to help me with this than your average music store

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    I'm not sure this has been mentioned yet, but I think the reason why mandolin players very seldom play chordal backup in Irish/Scottish sessions is that it's an instrument in the same pitch range as fiddles, flutes, pipes, and accordions that are carrying the melody line. A mandolin is in that same pitch range. If you strum chords, there is a very high potential for an unfortunate chord choice to distract the melody players, who are all listening very carefully to each other as they get in sync on the tune.

    All the traditional backing instruments are lower in pitch like guitar, bouzouki, and the bass notes on an accordion, where clashes are less noticeable and the backing chords sit underneath the higher melody line.

    This isn't to say one should avoid the harmonic potential of the mandolin when playing melody. I frequently toss in a few partial chords or dyads within the linear melody line when playing a trad tune, wherever it seems appropriate. Similar to the way a Uilleann piper will occasionally hit the regulators, or an accordion player will use occasional chords within the melody line. If you're careful about where you do that, it won't distract the linear melody players.

    So my advice would be to get a mandolin, it's a great instrument, and practice the tunes instead of playing chords.

    Start with the slower ones like marches and hornpipes, and work your way up to jigs and reels. If your local session is playing at tempos you're not ready for, see if there is a "slow session" in your area, or find someone in the local session to practice with. Have fun and be patient, it's a long journey for all of us who have developed an interest in this music!

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Foldedpath said:

    'the melody players... Are all listening very carefully to each other...'

    Obviously you go to a good class of session

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Another thing you may encounter, Ethan, is 'everybody trying to play faster than anyone else'. This afflicts some sessions more than others, but there are now quite a few which start with a 'slow session' for those just getting to know the tunes. If you fancy that and it doesn't yet exist, suggest it - you may find a number of others support that idea, and that some tunes sound great slowed down and played carefully.

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    A couple of Dundee musicians occasionally come up to Aberdeen for the Sunday and Monday sessions at the Red lion and Blue Lamp.

    I understand from them that the Fish in Broughtyferry and another one in Dundee (Speedwell?) are going strong on Tuesday and Thursday nights. I guess these are the ones you're going to.

    I would just echo what everyone else is saying.
    Take your time, learn tunes, try to get a "session friend" who you can practice with.
    For a start, work towards getting just one tune you can play if asked, no matter how slow, just concentrate on playing it steadily.

    If they don't ask you to play a tune, just ask them if you can play a tune. Most sessions are open to that.
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    A couple of Dundee musicians occasionally come up to Aberdeen for the Sunday and Monday sessions at the Red lion and Blue Lamp.

    I understand from them that the Fish in Broughtyferry and another one in Dundee (Speedwell?) are going strong on Tuesday and Thursday nights. I guess these are the ones you're going to.

    I would just echo what everyone else is saying.
    Take your time, learn tunes, try to get a "session friend" who you can practice with.
    For a start, work towards getting just one tune you can play if asked, no matter how slow, just concentrate on playing it steadily.

    If they don't ask you to play a tune, just ask them if you can play a tune. Most sessions are open to that.
    Aye it's the Speedwell sessions I go to, and I might start going to the Fish in the new year but for now they've put a halt on sessions in light of new guidelines. I just joined the facebook group at least.

    They are a super friendly bunch at Speedwells and don't mind anyone joining in, even if it's not scottish or trad any tune's a tune! I mostly listen and will throw in 1 or 2 Corries songs a week, had good reception on my voice at least .

    If/when I get a hold of a mandolin I need to make sure I don't overdo it and burn myself out, take it slow but that's a good idea to pick someone to practice. Would it make sense to pick a violinist since the tunings are the same?

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    If/when I get a hold of a mandolin I need to make sure I don't overdo it and burn myself out, take it slow but that's a good idea to pick someone to practice. Would it make sense to pick a violinist since the tunings are the same?
    Yes, perhaps, but the main thing would be to find someone who would take some time with you, whatever the instrument.

    Outwith the session, you may want to consider whether you ever want to accompany yourself singing, since that seems to be your main thing. As a long term player of both mandolin and octave mandolin, I can unhesitatingly say that the octave is what I would mainly use for song accompaniment. For one thing it is much more capo friendly. You can put a capo on pretty much any fret to suit your voice, and play quite simple chords and it would sound quite effective.
    Last edited by Dagger Gordon; Dec-16-2021 at 2:55am.
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    Outwith the session, you may want to consider whether you ever want to accompany yourself singing, since that seems to be your main thing.
    That's the tricky thing aye, I mostly see myself playing with the other instruments at sessions but it's worth keeping in mind an OM might suit my voice better. I have an annoying middle of the road voice, can neither go too high or too low, which a regular mandolin wouldn't suit as well.

    I think very long term I'd need to consider it but for the short term a mandolin to play tunes is my main goal.

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    The annoying thing about looking on Gumtree (like craigslist but slightly less shady) is that most if not all of the mandolins I can afford are the "beginner" imported plywood pieces of rubbish which, while cheap, would cost me to get playable and even then be uncomfortable to play.

    Not really relevant as I'll be saving for a new instrument but it's a shame the used market is so shoddy around here.

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    If/when I get a hold of a mandolin I need to make sure I don't overdo it and burn myself out, take it slow but that's a good idea to pick someone to practice. Would it make sense to pick a violinist since the tunings are the same?
    Playing with a fiddle is good when you want to teach each other licks but not great the rest of the time. You're both fighting for the same sonic space in the register. Same goes for banjo. You're best off with guitar or bass who can fill in the lower end you're missing.
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    I'm going to be the odd one out here: Many times folks think that backing tunes via playing chords is an easy gateway into immediately being able to attend a session and participate rather than taking the time to learn to play the melodies of the tunes first - it already sounds like there are quite a few backers at this session as it is as you mention several acoustic guitarists in attendance - is there a need for another backer?... While an attitude of being empowered to "do your own thing" is admirable, a session is a collective experience - how will what you do contribute to the collective experience?
    Great point Jill. This is, IMO, a very important thing to consider. And its not an Irish thing or a Scottish thing or an Appalachian Old Time thing, it is 100% a collective experience of the jam thing.

    I am not going to be able to improve on what Jill said. Only to add, redundantly, some comments from my experience.

    There are I believe two misconceptions. The first being that somehow backing with chords is "what you can do when you don't know the tune". The second being that "you have to do something".

    There is a question I often hear asked, naturally enough, by folks new to a jam - what should I do if I don't know the tune? And, IMO, the answer is, "learn the tune".

    I often sit out and listen when I don't know the tune. I often make the joke (a long time cliche boring everyone who knows me), I say "if I knew every tune I would never get to drink!" But seriously, sitting and actively listening is the first step in learning a tune. Learning anything, I suppose.

    When I started in this I had a small cassette recorder that I used, (with permission) to record the playing of tunes I didn't know. Today the technology is there in everyone's cell phone! I spent many a day after, often starting later that night after a jam, replaying those recordings, instrument in hand, learning the tune.

    ...but if this is an established session with a decent level of playing on display then going along and trying to back the tunes when you're only learning them still might not be the best contribution you could make to the session.
    The other great thing that listening does is help me gauge the level of the jam, the specific types of music, and other things more intangible, like the relative openness of the jam, who are the "alphas", and who I might approach at the break to find out whether there is a set list, or ask to play me a clean version of a tune, to record on my cell phone.
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    If you're not happy with what's available in Dundee, then you could make a bus or train trip up to Stonehaven, where Pete at Celtic Chords one of the best selections of mandolins in Scotland with a knowledgeable proprietor.

    If you're going down to Edinburgh, then Scayles has a good range of Eastman and Kentucky mandolins.
    I've also been impressed by Ashbury mandolins that I've tried.
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    If you're not happy with what's available in Dundee, then you could make a bus or train trip up to Stonehaven, where Pete at Celtic Chords one of the best selections of mandolins in Scotland with a knowledgeable proprietor.

    If you're going down to Edinburgh, then Scayles has a good range of Eastman and Kentucky mandolins.
    I've also been impressed by Ashbury mandolins that I've tried.
    Thanks for the info! I'd heard about Scayles but didn't know about Celtic Chords, I'll definitely give them a look.

    If my budget is £200 max would you say get the ~£180 Ashbury or a similarly priced Ozark? I'm not too familiar with that brand, but I know I can't afford a Kentucky!

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    If my budget is £200 max would you say get the ~£180 Ashbury or a similarly priced Ozark? I'm not too familiar with that brand, but I know I can't afford a Kentucky!
    I understand Ashbury to be the house brand of Hobgoblin music shops. I think they are designed by renowned English instrument maker Phil Davidson and made to his specifications in Vietnam. Scayles shop in Edinburgh is part of Hobgoblin. They don't seem to be exclusively sold at Hobgoblin however, as I think Celtic Chords in Stonehaven sell them.

    https://hobgoblin.com/branches

    https://hobgoblin.com/fretted-amp-stringed/ashbury

    Here is a clip of Tim Edey playing an Ashbury octave mandola in Hobgoblin, Canterbury.

    https://www.facebook.com/hobgoblinmu...20763348337033

    I don't think you're doing too badly with the Ozark in Vintage Strings in Dundee though.
    Last edited by Dagger Gordon; Dec-17-2021 at 3:05am.
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    In relation to comments on playing what a session needs - Perhaps that's an ideal for sessions, but in my experience that's not what most play in sessions for. Sure, there can be times when you wish one of the six melodeons might swap to the whistle you know she plays - but generally folks aren't trying to form a band and refine the arrangements, they're there to 'have a tune' and have fun playing. So, unless your session is really overweight in one area (eg 6 guitars and one fiddle), I wouldn't worry too much about that.

    Also a note for our (majority?) American friends. IMO, UK folk sessions don't generally feature solo breaks, even more rarely improvise breaks they tend more to everyone playing the tune or rhythm (occasionally, 'to death'). Maybe solo breaks would be a great idea, but for whatever reason, they're not common in sessions I've been to.

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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    £849 for the Iona on sale, is pretty amazing, that’s including tax. https://hobgoblin.com/fretted-amp-stringed/ashbury?p=2 They were a lot more, but maybe sterling/euro rate has changed too.
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    Default Re: Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    In relation to comments on playing what a session needs - Perhaps that's an ideal for sessions, but in my experience that's not what most play in sessions for. Sure, there can be times when you wish one of the six melodeons might swap to the whistle you know she plays - but generally folks aren't trying to form a band and refine the arrangements, they're there to 'have a tune' and have fun playing. So, unless your session is really overweight in one area (eg 6 guitars and one fiddle), I wouldn't worry too much about that.

    Also a note for our (majority?) American friends. IMO, UK folk sessions don't generally feature solo breaks, even more rarely improvise breaks they tend more to everyone playing the tune or rhythm (occasionally, 'to death'). Maybe solo breaks would be a great idea, but for whatever reason, they're not common in sessions I've been to.

    I don't recall anyone saying they wanted to go to a session to "form a band and refine arrangements" - where's that coming from? As for considering the needs of a session, obviously people are free to do whatever they want, there would be a percentage of people who go to sessions and view it as an exercise about them and their needs, and there would be a percentage of people who go to a session and want to contribute to the collective experience. Your mileage may vary of course, but I prefer the latter type of session meself.
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