Playing chords alongside traditional tunes

[larten27]

Hello there! My name's Ethan and I've been lurking for a while as I want to dip my toe into the world of mandolins so I finally made an account, figuring gathering info would be wise before buying an instrument.

I'm a part of my local university's Traditional Scottish Music Society and we meet up at the pub once a week for sessions; playing a variety of reels, jigs, strathspeys and occasionally an appalachian tune. I don't bring any instruments, I'm a singer mostly, but I thought a mandolin would be a nice addition to the collection of fiddles we mostly have.

I find the idea of playing melodies at tempo with the rest of them quite daunting since it's a whole new musical environment for me, and I was wondering what peoples' opinions were on playing purely chord accompaniment? Getting a load of 2 finger chords and strum patterns under my belt seemed sensible for playing along until I felt more comfortable learning fast paced tunes.

I'd be mostly self teaching with online lessons and videos, mandolin teachers are not apparently common in my corner of Scotland.

[Dagger Gordon]

Playing chords on mandolin is not particularly common at these kind of sessions, although I do sometimes do it myself.

I wonder if you might be better having a go at a bouzouki, octave mandolin type of instrument, especially if you don't see yourself playing fast melodies.
Just a thought. I certainly never want to put anyone off playing the mandolin. Where exactly are you?

Dagger

[allenhopkins]

One reason mandolin's such a great instrument, is that it's good for both melody playing and chording. IMHO starting out playing chords "behind" the melody instruments makes perfect sense -- as long as you [A] play the right chords, and [2] keep to moderate volume, simple and supportive strumming patterns, and, above all, listen to the melodies, since they're the reason that there is a tune.

Immersing yourself in the jam, you'll acquire knowledge, familiarity, and finally competence in playing melodies, even on some of the faster and more difficult tunes. As a novice picker (or strummer), it's good to stay in the background and play "student" for a few months anyway.

I hope that the "lead" instrument players are welcoming of new additions to the group, and allow for the stumbles we all make as we acquire more skill and knowledge. My experience, though, has been that college-age musicians can sometimes be less than accepting. You may get a few "cold shoulders" when you start; with any luck, that'll pass as you become a regular member of the jam.

Good luck.

[larten27]

One reason mandolin's such a great instrument, is that it's good for both melody playing and chording. IMHO starting out playing chords "behind" the melody instruments makes perfect sense -- as long as you [A] play the right chords, and [2] keep to moderate volume, simple and supportive strumming patterns, and, above all, listen to the melodies, since they're the reason that there is a tune.

Immersing yourself in the jam, you'll acquire knowledge, familiarity, and finally competence in playing melodies, even on some of the faster and more difficult tunes. As a novice picker (or strummer), it's good to stay in the background and play "student" for a few months anyway.

I hope that the "lead" instrument players are welcoming of new additions to the group, and allow for the stumbles we all make as we acquire more skill and knowledge. My experience, though, has been that college-age musicians can sometimes be less than accepting. You may get a few "cold shoulders" when you start; with any luck, that'll pass as you become a regular member of the jam.

Good luck.

That was my thinking, stick to the background and gradually pick up skills while I do the basics. I've only sung with them so far in the past few months but they're actually a friendly and encouraging group of people. On mondays they have practice sessions, where they pick a set and run through it slowly to learn it. I'm yet to attend one of those but with practice I might have the confidence to eventually.

[larten27]

Playing chords on mandolin is not particularly common at these kind of sessions, although I do sometimes do it myself.

I wonder if you might be better having a go at a bouzouki, octave mandolin type of instrument, especially if you don't see yourself playing fast melodies.
Just a thought. I certainly never want to put anyone off playing the mandolin. Where exactly are you?

Dagger

I think I'll build up to playing the pieces at full tempo but I know if I jump in at the deep end I will struggle and be put off, so taking it slow and practicing just playing chords in the right key seemed sensible. I understand it may not be typical but better to start gradual.

I'm in Dundee, when I can afford it I'm going to get a £200 Ozark from Vintage Strings(shop here in Dundee).

[Dagger Gordon]

I think I'll build up to playing the pieces at full tempo but I know if I jump in at the deep end I will struggle and be put off, so taking it slow and practicing just playing chords in the right key seemed sensible. I understand it may not be typical but better to start gradual.

I'm in Dundee, when I can afford it I'm going to get a £200 Ozark from Vintage Strings(shop here in Dundee).

Go for it. Vintage Strings is owned by Mike Ward. At one time he was in a group called Alba, where he sometimes played fingerstyle mandolin - one of the few people I've ever seen do that. He was a good fiddler, but also played classical guitar a bit. I'm sure you'll find him helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OErAle0IWcQ

[catmandu2]

For more context on 'chords in trad music' - 18:30" from Bill Evans to the Cure - check out portions of this interview with Karen Tweed (accordion-centric, but the whole thing's a lovely bit about music/musicianship in general)

https://thefolkmusicpodcast.com/epis...4gANg1w28BCfF8

[Simon DS]

My advice (but don't listen to me, I'm biased!) Would be to get an octave mandolin. That way you can learn for example the double stops all the way up the neck on the first two courses in the key of G, then do a fair amount of metronoming to get a really solid rhythm. Then you basically be singing songs while accompanied by an exotic guitar. That's actually important because with a guitar the chords are too fat. You need to be able to leave space for the Fiddlers.

Another option would be to get a mandolin and understand that it will take you time to get the speed that maybe you looking for, but if you join a band, or form one, then your melodic presence will be invaluable. With your singing it will actually make the band.
In this way you would only have to learn a couple of riffs that are repeated throughout each song, and leave the guitarist to secure a harmonic structure.
Good luck!

[larten27]

My advice (but don't listen to me, I'm biased!) Would be to get an octave mandolin. That way you can learn for example the double stops all the way up the neck on the first two courses in the key of G, then do a fair amount of metronoming to get a really solid rhythm. Then you basically be singing songs while accompanied by an exotic guitar. That's actually important because with a guitar the chords are too fat. You need to be able to leave space for the Fiddlers.

Another option would be to get a mandolin and understand that it will take you time to get the speed that maybe you looking for, but if you join a band, or form one, then your melodic presence will be invaluable. With your singing it will actually make the band.
In this way you would only have to learn a couple of riffs that are repeated throughout each song, and leave the guitarist to secure a call harmonic structure.
Good luck!

You're the second person to mention an octave mandolin which I have since gone and looked up. That sound is something else entirely, and while less suited to straight melodies has such lovely resonance on those chords.

I'm quite torn now. I like the idea of having just a mandolin and sticking with chords while I practice my technique to eventually play the melody of reels at full speed, but I also like the idea of having an OM and that gorgeous sustained sound for purely playing accompanying chords.

Quite the dilemma!

[Sue Rieter]

Easy enough to solve. Get both

[Pittsburgh Bill]

Easy enough to solve. Get both

Or compromise, get a C G D A mandola.

[Simon DS]

Or compromise, get a C G D A mandola.

Nah, get all three.

[Ray(T)]

Nah, get all three.

Getting all three is simply asking for problems. I have all three and I also play guitar so even the simple task of carrying them into and out of sessions can be a real pain. Add to that finding somewhere safe to stash the three instruments I’m not playing on any particular tune/song adds to the problem so I tend to take only two of them leaving me with the problem of which two? Life can be so difficult!

Personally, I see no problem with just playing chords. Bluegrass mandolin players spend a high proportion of their time simply chopping chords. I’m also a great believer in the principle that you’ll never become famous by doing things the same way as everyone else.

[larten27]

Getting all three is simply asking for problems. I have all three and I also play guitar so even the simple task of carrying them into and out of sessions can be a real pain. Add to that finding somewhere safe to stash the three instruments I’m not playing on any particular tune/song adds to the problem so I tend to take only two of them leaving me with the problem of which two? Life can be so difficult!

Personally, I see no problem with just playing chords. Bluegrass mandolin players spend a high proportion of their time simply chopping chords. I’m also a great believer in the principle that you’ll never become famous by doing things the same way as everyone else.

Very well said. I'm all for learning from the best and from all you wise folks but there comes a point where I'll need to do my own thing, even if not to become famous but to enjoy it as much as possible.

No way I'd get all three especially this early into an unexplored hobby, I'll probably stick with my original choice of mandolin then maybe branch out if I enjoy it that much.

[Gelsenbury]

Well, you said that you were saving up for a mandolin, so I'm sure the advice to buy that plus a mandola plus an octave mandola was meant in jest. Budget is clearly an important consideration.

For versatility, the mandolin is a good choice. As has been said before in this thread, it's good for both melody and chords. And if there's another chord player in the session - a guitarist, for example - the mandolin's higher register stays out of the way and adds sparkle rather than competing with the guitar.

If the session lacks a chord player and you see yourself playing chords for the foreseeable future, the octave is a good option.

The mandola is in between. Depending on your voice, you may find it useful to accompany your singing at some point in the future.

Another consideration may be that you can get some good second-hand offers on mandolins. Second-hand mandolas or octave mandolas seem to be rarer, presumably because there are fewer of those instruments around.

[larten27]

Well, you said that you were saving up for a mandolin, so I'm sure the advice to buy that plus a mandola plus an octave mandola was meant in jest. Budget is clearly an important consideration.

For versatility, the mandolin is a good choice. As has been said before in this thread, it's good for both melody and chords. And if there's another chord player in the session - a guitarist, for example - the mandolin's higher register stays out of the way and adds sparkle rather than competing with the guitar.

If the session lacks a chord player and you see yourself playing chords for the foreseeable future, the octave is a good option.

The mandola is in between. Depending on your voice, you may find it useful to accompany your singing at some point in the future.

Another consideration may be that you can get some good second-hand offers on mandolins. Second-hand mandolas or octave mandolas seem to be rarer, presumably because there are fewer of those instruments around.

Aye I assume they were just joking, but you never know who's got a bout of MAS at any given time .

We usually have at least 1 if not 2 or 3 acoustic guitars chording along, plus an accordionist who could chord but usually sticks to melody. Sticking with the mandolin for versatility is the smart choice.

I have been looking on gumtree/ebay/etc for 2nd hand instruments but they're either beat up project pieces or expensive models. I don't mind buying new from a trusted local shop, especially if it means set up is included in that price. I can always travel further afield for a higher end instrument if that's the road I want to go down, a mid tier ozark isn't the worst place to start.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Or compromise, get a C G D A mandola.

in English, that means get all three!

- - - Updated - - -

Nah, get all three.

And leave out the bouzouki? Come on!

[Charlie Bernstein]

Welcome, Larten! Here's the opinion of an opinionated non-pro: If you want to get started by playing chords, there's nothing wrong with that!

For traditional music, you'll want a warmer sound. So I'd look for something with a round or oval hole, all solid wood, and something other than maple. I know people here will have lots of good suggestions. My own is to start by looking at these: Big Muddy Mandolins.

I had one for a while, and it sounded and played great. Whatever you end up with, enjoy taking the mando plunge. Endless fun!

[Ray(T)]

Personally, I wouldn’t recommend an octave mandolin for purely playing chords is sessions. The OM has much the same voice as a guitar and would, therefore, tend to get lost in the mix. Bearing in mind the comparative cost of an OM and a guitar; quality wise, you’re likely to get twice the quality of a guitar for the price of an OM.

[Simon DS]

...And leave out the bouzouki? Come on!

And the sweet soprano banjos tuned in nylon fifths, that means get all five of them!

oh, and the ebass ukulele tuned in fifths...

[Jill McAuley]

I'm going to be the odd one out here: Many times folks think that backing tunes via playing chords is an easy gateway into immediately being able to attend a session and participate rather than taking the time to learn to play the melodies of the tunes first - it already sounds like there are quite a few backers at this session as it is as you mention several acoustic guitarists in attendance - is there a need for another backer? If this is a "learner's session", then more power to your elbow, go along and learn on the job as it were, but if this is an established session with a decent level of playing on display then going along and trying to back the tunes when you're only learning them still might not be the best contribution you could make to the session. While an attitude of being empowered to "do your own thing" is admirable, a session is a collective experience - how will what you do contribute to the collective experience?

[Simon DS]

Personally, I wouldn’t recommend an octave mandolin for purely playing chords is sessions. The OM has much the same voice as a guitar and would, therefore, tend to get lost in the mix. Bearing in mind the comparative cost of an OM and a guitar; quality wise, you’re likely to get twice the quality of a guitar for the price of an OM.

Yes, at the end of the day you have to decide if you want to play melody, and if there is a gaggle of guitars at the farm then a sweet mandolin is your best defence.
You can of course tune a guitar into fifths and use a capo at fifth fret while playing the top four strings as melody and the bottom two are drones.
Even with cheap guitars, when well set up, this can sound great like this.
Good practice for the fingers.

[maxr]

One thing that might be worth considering, larten77, that I have in mind to do, is learning to do easier jazzy accompaniments to Scottish trad tunes - it can be really effective. That way you may stand out at sessions as someone who plays interesting stuff. I'm thinking of tune arrangements by e.g. a band called The Easy Club, they don't sound too complicated. Anyone have sources for chord sheets for that kind of stuff, or other bands that do that?

[larten27]

I'm going to be the odd one out here: Many times folks think that backing tunes via playing chords is an easy gateway into immediately being able to attend a session and participate rather than taking the time to learn to play the melodies of the tunes first - it already sounds like there are quite a few backers at this session as it is as you mention several acoustic guitarists in attendance - is there a need for another backer? If this is a "learner's session", then more power to your elbow, go along and learn on the job as it were, but if this is an established session with a decent level of playing on display then going along and trying to back the tunes when you're only learning them still might not be the best contribution you could make to the session. While an attitude of being empowered to "do your own thing" is admirable, a session is a collective experience - how will what you do contribute to the collective experience?

All very good points aye. Probably best to rethink my approach a tad

[John Kelly]

Lots of solid advice here, and Jill McAuley's advice is especially worth heeding, Laarten27. There seem to be enough backing instruments in your group as it is, with the guitars and an accordion who could play chords but tends to play melody. If you are just at the early learning stage then playing quietly on your mandolin, on the tunes you feel you might be able to play, would be a possible option. A mandolin can be easily hidden in the overall sound of the session, especially if you have several fiddlers, and if you are playing quietly and not intruding into the tune too much, this should be acceptable.

I often attend sessions where learners are very welcome and recently I was playing with a group of local fiddlers (I play guitar and mandolin family and was the only non-fiddler there apart from one concertina player); two of the people there were absolute beginners but members of the group. One of the experienced fiddlers suggested that they play open drones on the G and D strings on suitable tunes and they did this and had great fun, being an active part of the group.

If you are ever over in the Dunoon area of Argyllshire you could give me a shout and we could have a few tunes, maybe.