Chinese made die cast tailpieces - any good?

[maxr]

We've all seen these Chinese made die cast mandolin tailpieces advertised - they're all over Ebay direct from China, and imported to USA and Europe under various brand names. I don't like stamped tin anythings on any musical instrument, especially when covered by a nuisance cover plate that either won't come off or won't stay on, so I'm considering replacing the stamped tin tailpiece I have with a cast one like this:



Has anyone experience of these - do they work, did it make any difference to the sound, anything else? I know about potential fitting probs.

Thanks, Max

[J Mangio]

Looks like an Allen spinoff.
Let's face it, the function is to hold strings, I doubt you will notice a difference in tone.

[peter.coombe]

I ordered some from China a while ago and although they are reasonably well made (and cheap), the problem is the string loops keep slipping off the posts. The Allen tailpieces have the posts at an angle so the string loops don't come off. A small difference that makes a really big difference in practice. The frustration at stringing up meant they ended up in the bin, and I ordered some Allen tailpieces. MUCH better. You get for what you pay for.

[mandroid]

we read one of the E hooks breaking on Eastman TP, but no one writes a thing if they dont.

[HonketyHank]

I ordered some from China a while ago and although they are reasonably well made (and cheap), the problem is the string loops keep slipping off the posts. The Allen tailpieces have the posts at an angle so the string loops don't come off. A small difference that makes a really big difference in practice. The frustration at stringing up meant they ended up in the bin, and I ordered some Allen tailpieces. MUCH better. You get for what you pay for.

Same thing happened to me.

[Zach Wilson]

You get for what you pay for.

Wise words, Sir.

On your tone getting better/more sustain after swapping tailpieces... imho, I've never had this experience. Others have. You never know I guess.

[JEStanek]

I wonder if you could bend the posts towards the end pin with a pair of pliers (gently) to prevent the slippage.

Jamie

[Zach Wilson]

I wonder if you could bend the posts towards the end pin with a pair of pliers (gently) to prevent the slippage.

Jamie

I was thinking about the same thing... or filing a little notch so the string has something to hook on to.

[Richard500]

I wonder if you could bend the posts towards the end pin with a pair of pliers (gently) to prevent the slippage.

Jamie

If they’re pot metal, that is zinc alloy, bending isn’t possible. They will often break. Even cast brass, actually a different family of zinc alloy, tends to be brittle. Any casting can have a few weak places, so I would expect failures now and then because the pins are fairly small. A tiny touch on each pin with a small abrasive wheel in a Dremel might be a better solution. Not enough to make a weakening notch, just a tilt off vertical. Cheap enough to ruin one or two.
I suppose that if I were making a run of these, I might use inserted pins instead, or pull test every casting.

[Jeff Hildreth]

"Looks like an Allen spinoff."

Allen is a spin off.

[maxr]

Thanks all - I've ordered an Allen, these Chinese tailpieces sound a bit fragile. We'll see whether it makes any difference to the sound or not. My experience is that vitually anything you change which contacts a musical instrument soundboard or the strings, or even adds mass to the instrument, has the potential to change the sound, but also that it doesn't always happen. I'll be happy just to get rid of the cheap piece of bent steel that's on there at the moment, even if it doesn't improve the sound.

[Richard500]

"Looks like an Allen spinoff."

Allen is a spin off.

Interesting that as mandolins began their high popularity in the US, patents became a big deal for tailpieces. In the same era, patents in general were thought to be protection against infringement, evidence of quality, and magical routes to fortune. None of this was especially true, for mechanical gizmos like these.
Today, almost anything can be infringed with impunity unless there’s really big money involved.

[allenhopkins]

...Allen is a spin off.

No I ain't.

[pops1]

I don't mind the stamped tailpiece, and even prefer it to something like the Allen. If I replace one I buy stainless and adjust the cover so it goes on an off easily, and doesn't rattle. I prefer less mass, not ,more.

[Sue Rieter]

I have one of those type of tailpieces on my Mid Mo mandola. It's not shiny like the one in the OP, though, it's got sort of a textured surface to it. There's no name on the heel of it. I can't tell if the posts are at an angle, but I don't think so. I haven't had any strings slip off, thank goodness, but now that I look at it, one of the D string loops is pretty close to the top of the post. I've never played this instrument very hard (being a newbie and because it is a stretch for my fingers); maybe more vigorous playing would get the whole thing vibrating harder and cause it to slip.

This isn't the original tailpiece for this instrument, but it's the one it came with. It was described as an upgrade by my repair guy. Yes, no, maybe so?

[Simon DS]

These cheap parts from China can sometimes be really good. They're often cheap because there is some small detail, or details that need fixing if at all possible.
With this part some questions are:

Can the shiny, cheap looking finish be toned down, is it easily scratched or removed?
The part has a bevelled edge so the screw heads won't sit correctly.
What is the angle between the two planes?
Can the pins be roughened up, or given a cut in order to hold the strings?
Are those three real holes for the screws?
How much does each part weigh?
What is the diameter of the concave shape that will fit onto the mandolin?
Do the string holes need cleaning up?
Are the pins going to be strong enough?
Will the end pin fit into or onto the hole provided?
Hole’s too big?
Is the end pin Centre screw Long enough?
Is it worth the extra labour involved to repair each one?
Why, precisely, are the parts cheap? -More than one answer.

[dhergert]

We've all seen these Chinese made die cast mandolin tailpieces advertised - they're all over Ebay direct from China, and imported to USA and Europe under various brand names. I don't like stamped tin anythings on any musical instrument, especially when covered by a nuisance cover plate that either won't come off or won't stay on, so I'm considering replacing the stamped tin tailpiece I have with a cast one like this:

...

Has anyone experience of these - do they work, did it make any difference to the sound, anything else? I know about potential fitting probs.

Thanks, Max

The MK mandolins (ca. 2016) used a welded brass tailpiece with similar round posts instead of string hooks...

The problem with the round posts is that if a plain (not wound) string's loop windings have any tendency to slip, because of the smooth round post, they will... Meaning the string loop will un-tie and the string will slip off under tension. I've had brand new D'A and other plain strings slip like this, which then necessitates trying to re-tie the loop, which isn't always successful. I've not had this occur with wound strings.

Interestingly, if the posts are the right size (as the MK tailpieces mentioned above were), they will work with ball end strings, so while most of us use loop ends, ball end strings might work ok.

One solution is to loop the strings over other-than-intended round string posts, bending and cinching the loop winding area around another post before it leaves the tailpiece. But this gets pretty complicated if you have to replace a single string.

A better solution is an actual gradually tightening set of hooks that are intended to actually become tight around the string loop. Some of these also bend the string at the string winding, cinching the winding so it won't slip, like for example a "traditional" stamped tailpiece -- although I have seen plain string loop windings also fail with traditional stamped tailpieces too.

The ideal solution is for plain strings to have soldered loop windings, but most string manufacturers do not do that anymore.

FWIW, I've never had this happen with my cast James tailpiece, which features gradually tightening string loop hooks.

Edit:

... My experience is that vitually anything you change which contacts a musical instrument soundboard or the strings, or even adds mass to the instrument, has the potential to change the sound, but also that it doesn't always happen. ...

BTW, I agree about sound differences with anything you change on an instrument, although not everyone does. But human hearing is very subjective and it's hard to prove anything in this regard...

From my banjo experience I know a lot of folks love their Presto tailpieces (copies or originals). I've heard and played a lot of great sounding banjos with a large assortment of tailpieces, so I'm not really convinced one way or another.

Regarding my James tailpiece, while it's bell bronze, it is fairly light (not noticeably very different in weight from a stamped tailpiece), so I cannot attribute sound differences related to weight. But it is extremely solid, plus it does raise the strings ~1/16" higher off the table on exiting the tailpiece, which might make differences in sound.

[Richard500]

@Simon
Gosh, what a list! Don’t have one, and they’re possibly different molds, but:
In the US, the prevalent Chinese ones are as low as $12, the Allens maybe north of $100. Remember that an Asian factory mandolin, basic model, probably leaves the factory for less than the cost of dinner out, complete.
There do not seem to be blueprints or material data on anything. The cheap ones are sometimes called zinc, which is or can be ‘pot metal’, inexpensive, easy to cast, mostly silvery white with no finish. The expensive ones might be bronze, a copper-tin alloy (sometimes), usually a bit sturdier, likely denser - or something else entirely. Bronzes, unfinished, are, well, bronze color. Cheap finishes on zinc may be vacuum-evaporated brass, titanium nitride, various electroplate or even tinted lacquers. The same finishes can appear on bronze.
It seems all of these come in shiny or satin finishes, various colors. If you had a shiny one with (an extremely thin) finish, you could make it matte with sanding or abrasive blasting, or chemistry. I wouldn’t bother as doing anything uniformly isn’t easy.
One issue is the hole layout and whether it matches what you have, or if you care.
Another is the angle: I’m guessing that it’s appropriate for an archtop, maybe odd-looking for a flattop or a bowlback. Just a guess. Do not expect to be able to bend any of these.
For further tailpiece discussions, sensible and hallucinatory, search this forum.

[meow-n-dolin]

We've all seen these Chinese made die cast mandolin tailpieces advertised - they're all over Ebay direct from China, and imported to USA and Europe under various brand names. I don't like stamped tin anythings on any musical instrument, especially when covered by a nuisance cover plate that either won't come off or won't stay on, so I'm considering replacing the stamped tin tailpiece I have with a cast one like this:



Has anyone experience of these - do they work, did it make any difference to the sound, anything else? I know about potential fitting probs.

Thanks, Max

I have that exact one on my Eastman. Delivered price was, IIRC, eleven dollars (Amazon). I had to redrill one of the holes. It works perfect. I am pretty darn sure, from the weight, that it is not pot-metal - it has good mass. I have had it for a few months now, and it looks and works perfectly. The sound is fine -- I couldn't tell by listening that there was any difference in the tone, but then, I haven't found the cast Eastman tailpieces to be lacking in that area.

[meow-n-dolin]

We've all seen these Chinese made die cast mandolin tailpieces advertised - they're all over Ebay direct from China, and imported to USA and Europe under various brand names. I don't like stamped tin anythings on any musical instrument, especially when covered by a nuisance cover plate that either won't come off or won't stay on, so I'm considering replacing the stamped tin tailpiece I have with a cast one like this:



Has anyone experience of these - do they work, did it make any difference to the sound, anything else? I know about potential fitting probs.

Thanks, Max

As far as the strings slipping off the posts while stringing, I simply used a tiny piece of Scotch removeable adhesive putty on the post to hold it in place while I string it -- then take it off. Easy-peasy. The tailpiece also accepts ball-end strings.

[RobH]

I also bought one of these Chinese tailpieces for a flat top mandolin I built. The string break angle was too high and I put it in my vise and smacked it with a wooden mallet. I figured it wouldn't lose too much if it broke and it bent fine. It didn't feel like pot metal. I also use fun tack when stringing up, even on stamped or cast Allen tailpieces.

[Ben Vierra]

I also bought one of these Chinese tailpieces for a flat top mandolin I built. The string break angle was too high and I put it in my vise and smacked it with a wooden mallet. I figured it wouldn't lose too much if it broke and it bent fine. It didn't feel like pot metal.

I did the very same adjustment for two bent-top mandolins I built recently. No problems encountered.

[mandroid]

I have one like pictured that I took off my Lebeda years ago if any one wants it ..
I'm in Oregon, not either 'China' RO or PR.. looks like it was Nickle plated 1st , then gold over it.

[maxr]

...Today, almost anything can be infringed with impunity unless there’s really big money involved.

Gibson appear to be hotter on patent infringements than most, particularly on whole instrument design. I guess that's a factor of when these designs were made and patents were registered. If anybody's ever tried to patent the general shape of violins then enforce it, I haven't heard of it, even with Chanot's cornerless violins. On another topic, a luthier (from memory) suggested that we don't see 'bench copies' of the most valuable Loar mandolins in the same way we don't see many dead spit copies of valuable early Les Paul guitars, even with a different name on the heastock. Maybe that's intended to stop minor embarrassments like (from memory) a guitar show some years ago where Gibson experts awarded the 'best Les Paul of show' prize to an instrument which the owner then declared was made for him from scratch by a craftsman who works out of a trailer someplace in USA.

[Richard500]

I wouldn’t want to discourage anyone with a great mandolin (or other) idea from using the US Patent Office, but my experience advising the amateur side has been that unjustified expectations about the value of patents remain. Now that the fee structure has become quite high, the days of ill-considered filings may be declining. Of course, since manufacturing is fully international, and patents are local, I think people are more aware that this form of intellectual property protection is not an automatic route to fame. Even very large companies file very small numbers in relation to the large number of products or inventions they have.
So, whomever gets to market first wins, regardless of who had the idea first.