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Thread: Bowl Backs

  1. #1

    Default Bowl Backs

    I’ve been yearning for a Bowl Back recently, but I don’t know very much about them at all. I’ve never held one or even touched one. So what about ‘em?

    How difficult are they to hold and play seated? And, yes, I have a belly. Are the new ones as bad as they say? Do they sound like a “regular” mandolin? What about the ones made in Japan? Where else?

    I found a nice looking Japanese one being sold by some guy in Montana, but I lost the darn info.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    At this point I’ve got about a dozen of these. My lockdown hobby is repairing and experimenting, and they drift in like sand. Every one sounds different, and I don’t have discriminating ears. Several people here are expert on the subject, and there’s lots to be found with a search on this site. The generalizations I’ve picked up are:
    1. There are excellent vintage ones, especially from Italy and the US. Low-end models, especially Eastern Europe, can be dull sounding.
    2. All bowl backs are fragile compared with other shapes and need lightest strings. As well, neck problems are nearly terminal due to the construction. So examine any one carefully. Luthiers may not want to work on them.
    3. Japanese modern era production is not generally thought of as great sounding. However, these are plentiful and solid instruments.
    4. Bowl backs and some other shapes are not common in bluegrass, and are softer-sounding.
    5. Serious classical artists do use them.
    6. Because the market is driven by genres, nearly all good bowl backs are inexpensive, as in below say, $500, but you have to be careful with respect to item (2).

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  4. #3
    Pittsburgh Bill
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    I played one once and found it to have a nice tone but not as loud as other mandolins. Holding it was difficult, but I think something that you get better at with a little experience.
    Was the one in Montana the $200.00 Alverez? I almost pulled the trigger on that one but pulled away as I considered that I would have little time to play it. Maybe the seller didn't sell it, see this post, and make your day with a PM.
    Good hunting and Happy Holidays
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  5. #4

    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Bill View Post
    I played one once and found it to have a nice tone but not as loud as other mandolins. Holding it was difficult, but I think something that you get better at with a little experience.
    Was the one in Montana the $200.00 Alverez? I almost pulled the trigger on that one but pulled away as I considered that I would have little time to play it. Maybe the seller didn't sell it, see this post, and make your day with a PM.
    Good hunting and Happy Holidays
    No, the guy wanted $600 for his, and buyer pay shipping. It was Japanese, and he was from Montana. Thanks for your info.

  6. #5
    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    At this point I’ve got about a dozen of these. My lockdown hobby is repairing and experimenting, and they drift in like sand. Every one sounds different, and I don’t have discriminating ears. Several people here are expert on the subject, and there’s lots to be found with a search on this site. The generalizations I’ve picked up are:
    1. There are excellent vintage ones, especially from Italy and the US. Low-end models, especially Eastern Europe, can be dull sounding.
    2. All bowl backs are fragile compared with other shapes and need lightest strings. As well, neck problems are nearly terminal due to the construction. So examine any one carefully. Luthiers may not want to work on them.
    3. Japanese modern era production is not generally thought of as great sounding. However, these are plentiful and solid instruments.
    4. Bowl backs and some other shapes are not common in bluegrass, and are softer-sounding.
    5. Serious classical artists do use them.
    6. Because the market is driven by genres, nearly all good bowl backs are inexpensive, as in below say, $500, but you have to be careful with respect to item (2).
    Hello Richard, Message sent.
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  7. #6
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    At this point I’ve got about a dozen of these. My lockdown hobby is repairing and experimenting, and they drift in like sand. Every one sounds different, and I don’t have discriminating ears. Several people here are expert on the subject, and there’s lots to be found with a search on this site. The generalizations I’ve picked up are:
    1. There are excellent vintage ones, especially from Italy and the US. Low-end models, especially Eastern Europe, can be dull sounding.
    2. All bowl backs are fragile compared with other shapes and need lightest strings. As well, neck problems are nearly terminal due to the construction. So examine any one carefully. Luthiers may not want to work on them.
    3. Japanese modern era production is not generally thought of as great sounding. However, these are plentiful and solid instruments.
    4. Bowl backs and some other shapes are not common in bluegrass, and are softer-sounding.
    5. Serious classical artists do use them.
    6. Because the market is driven by genres, nearly all good bowl backs are inexpensive, as in below say, $500, but you have to be careful with respect to item (2).
    Only a dozen, Richard? ... you have to catch up. I agree with all your points above. In terms of vintage ones, it is difficult to determine condition on line and, at least in North America, few luthiers want to bother with ones that have serious issues like neck sets or major construction problems. In some cases, it would cost more to repair than they are worth since there is not much of a market for these.

    Over the years we folks on these forums have perked up interest in them so some prices have risen but still nothing like carved top mandolins.

    As far as holding, you can get used to them if you really want to. When I was much more convex I found a way to tuck the bowl under my arm and used a footrest but didn't attempt to play standing up. More thoughts later...
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  9. #7
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Just as a general answer, i think bowlbacks are great. It was the mandolin i learned on so i have a soft spot for them, even though I seldom use mine. The scale length may be shorter and many models are softer in sound than other types -- it's a different sound, less brash and more harmonic -- but that also depends on the instrument. A lot of players have rubberized mats/cloth they put on their laps to keep it from slipping because few if any people use a strap, but you can certainly learn to hold and play one without. They're fun to tuck under an arm and stroll with. guy I knew had an old bowlback mandola that was just a wonderful instrument so you can expand to a lower pitch if you want.
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  11. #8

    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Broken bowl backs seem to find me and quickly become festival hats!
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  13. #9
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by oldwave maker View Post
    Broken bowl backs seem to find me and quickly become festival hats!
    Bill: I can ship you a dozen for your next bowl head party.
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  14. #10

    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by oldwave maker View Post
    Broken bowl backs seem to find me and quickly become festival hats!
    Especially when you want to get spruced up.

  15. #11
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Picking Dick View Post
    How difficult are they to hold and play seated? .
    Easy if you hold it right - and one can even stand without a strap holding a bowlback.

    3 point hold - the edge of the neck w/ left hand, the back on your belly/thighs, and right hand forearm over tailpiece.

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  17. #12
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Lots of vintage bowl-backs show up on auction sites, prices all over the lot, since they're often "attic finds" sold by people unfamiliar with the instruments. You can get a sense of this, when the main info the seller provides is how long the instrument is, and how much it weighs.

    If you can get to a reputable vintage dealer, either in person or on-line, that might be the way to go. You might pay a bit more, but you'd have some confidence that the dealer would stand behind the quality of the mandolin. Bernunzio here in Rochester usually has a small number for sale; unfortunately, this Washburn, available for $159, requires repairs. He has a couple pricier Italian instruments available -- wouldn't hurt to give a call and see if there are others that didn't make his website.

    And yes, you can use a thin thong as a "strap," and use it to hold the bowl-back in a good playing position, seated or standing.
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  18. #13

    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Allen, why did you have to show that beautiful, wounded, marked-down Washburn to me?
    I don’t even haunt any of the dealers, just the venues of the dregs, and here’s an obviously good dealer with a very appropriate project.
    I’m weighing this agains the cost of three bags of groceries from Whole Foods….

    And just for reference, some guy using a thong inappropriately as a mask got thrown off a flight recently, so be careful with suggestions of that ilk.

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  20. #14
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    ...an obviously good dealer with a very appropriate project. I’m weighing this agains the cost of three bags of groceries from Whole Foods….And just for reference, some guy using a thong inappropriately as a mask got thrown off a flight recently, so be careful with suggestions of that ilk.
    1] Not saying it'll help, but if you deal with Bernunzio's, wouldn't necessarily hurt to tell 'em you heard it from me. I've done so much business with John and his people, that my pic is painted on his window (playing my legendary Polk-A-Lay-Lee, which is probably why it was selected).

    B] By "thong" I meant the first dictionary definition, "a narrow strip of leather or other material," not the second, "a skimpy undergarment." Might be fun to try the second as a mandolin strap, but so far I haven't.
    Allen Hopkins
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Bill View Post
    I played one once and found it to have a nice tone but not as loud as other mandolins. Holding it was difficult, but I think something that you get better at with a little experience.
    Was the one in Montana the $200.00 Alverez? I almost pulled the trigger on that one but pulled away as I considered that I would have little time to play it. Maybe
    I found it or I should say the seller found me after I placed a "Wanted ad" here in the classifieds. I bought it. Not an Alverez as I thought, but instead an Ibenez. Glad I bought it as it, at least for the time being, quells my desire to own a Phoenix Neo-Classical. It has nice action, near perfect intonation, and sounds quite nice. Probably saved me $2K+ I would have payed for a Neo-Classical.
    So, I wanted to say thank you to Picking Dick for lighting a fire under me.
    I know the Ibenez (or a Neo-Classical) would only see infrequent use when I occasionally pull out the sheet music for the classical stuff.
    So, I wanted to say thank you to Picking Dick for lighting a fire under me.
    Thank You
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  22. #16
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    I think the Ibanez also branded Conqueror and others is the same as the Suzukis and were imported to US in the 1970s. They are ok. Frankly if you can find a vintage American ones such as Vega, Washburn, Martín, American Conservatory, Weymann, and a host of others and if it is good shape and set up well could can do quite nicely. I just acquired a Galvani/Rafael Ciani and even with old strings it is sweet sounding.
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  24. #17
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Jim Thank You for the info on vintage American bowl backs. I have no familiarity with any of those bowl backs you mentioned. I do see a very significant difference in tone from my bowl back and my other mandolins, but lack knowledge for comparison with other bowl backs. Most of, but not all tone difference, I hear from my other mandolins I attribute to lighter gauge strings and a lighter and pointier pick I am using with this mandolin.
    I have finally figured out how to hold it with the help of a silicone lap pad and a string around the head stock and my neck. Also, I have the same issue with the Ibenez flat fret board I always experience with flat fret boards of not always getting clean notes on the A and D strings while used to playing on radius boards.
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  26. #18
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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I just acquired a Galvani/Rafael Ciani and even with old strings it is sweet sounding.
    My phone autocorrect made a mistake: correct name is Galiano/Rafael Ciani.
    Jim

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    Default Re: Bowl Backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    My phone autocorrect made a mistake: correct name is Galiano/Rafael Ciani.
    Nice pick up, Jim. It kept me from asking how the action is on the Galvanic.

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