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Thread: Pine, what a tone

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    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Pine, what a tone

    Sadly this didn't make it into an instrument but here's what happened. I had jointed and planed some eastern white pine flooring then jointed it into some planks for some cabinets a chiropractor wanted hund on his garage walls. I picked dup on of the shelves and bumped it with my other hand. What a tone, lively defined note and very woody an organic note i would have loved in a top. It was also a very light and in my mind a bit brittle. Has anyone experimented with a pine top, flat or carved? I am curious how well it held up. The sound of this piece was just so amazing to me.
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    My Florida is scooped pheffernan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    Has anyone experimented with a pine top, flat or carved?
    Well, technically spruce is a pine, and I know of mandolins that have been built with Douglas fir and King Billy pine. I haven’t heard of eastern white pine being employed in that capacity, however.
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by pheffernan View Post
    Well, technically spruce is a pine, and I know of mandolins that have been built with Douglas fir and King Billy pine. I haven’t heard of eastern white pine being employed in that capacity, however.
    Not to be too technical, but...Technically, spruce belongs to the family Pinaceae, but pine and spruce belong to completely different genera within that family. Pines belong to the genus Pinus, while spruce belongs to the genus Picea. Therefore, spruce is not technically pine in my view, even though they come from the same family. There are a number of other quite different genera that fall within the Pinaceae family - including Cedrus (cedar), Tsuga (hemlock), Pseudotsuga (Douglas-fir) Abies (fir), Larix (larches), and more. There are significant differences in morphology and overall characteristics between these genera, although several of them may make for good tone wood. I don't know much about tone wood or building instruments, but I do understand plant taxonomy.

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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Thanks. Plant geek talk is great for clarification. Jim

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    MandoHog MandoHog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    I have never seen one of these in person, but heard about this process that strengthens pine to make it "work" for guitars.

    https://www.bj-byrne.com/page2
    https://www.bj-byrne.com/acoustic-prototype

    I just can't get my mind to see this as something that would work though.

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoHog View Post
    I have never seen one of these in person, but heard about this process that strengthens pine to make it "work" for guitars.

    https://www.bj-byrne.com/page2
    https://www.bj-byrne.com/acoustic-prototype

    I just can't get my mind to see this as something that would work though.
    What are they actually doing to the wood here? It's not immediately clear. Funny, my DH and I were talking last night. I'd put all my instruments away in the back room where the humidity is best controlled, and he said something like, too bad they couldn't permeate the wood with some kind of resin so that it was more resistant to environmental changes, and I said, I'm not sure that wouldn't change the sound too much. I think that's what these folks are doing.

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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    You will enjoy this story about a guitar made from a piece of Scots pine which spent 100 years as a bar shelf in Aberdeen-shire, Scotland. I saw Jenny perform with this guitar quite recently, and I can confirm that it sounded fantastic.

    https://www.taranguitars.co.uk/blogp...jenny-sturgeon
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    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    The four main traits that good tops need are - light, stiff, consistent, well-quartered. Most pine available these days was grown too fast, cured too quickly, cut poorly. Of course, old-growth antique lumber from a source that let the wood age well could have all these traits ... you just won't find it at Home Depot. If it feels, flexes, taps, and looks like something between Red, Sitka, and Englemann spruce then you are in the zone of possibility.

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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    An amazing instrument, Dagger, an so great to see wood being recycled in this way. The link you have included shows the quality of the Taran products and Rory's skills as a builder, and Jenny's voice really suits this special guitar. Thanks for posting this.
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Pine tends to have a lot of knots which can make getting a good clear board a problem. That said it has been used on guitars which are bigger.

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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Several years ago in a tour of the Martin Factory in Nazareth the tour guide kept referring to the Pine tops on the guitars. The third time he said it I asked if he meant Spruce and he rather red faced said that Yes, it was spruce. I'm wondering what they called it internally at the factory. The guides were long time employees.
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevin View Post
    Pine tends to have a lot of knots which can make getting a good clear board a problem. That said it has been used on guitars which are bigger.
    That would depend on the species and the growth. You can buy knot free pine boards even at Home Depot and Lowes but you pay a premium.
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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sorensen View Post
    ...Most pine available these days was grown too fast, cured too quickly, cut poorly...
    That could just as easily be: "...Most [spruce] available these days was grown too fast, cured too quickly, cut poorly..."

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    [QUOTE=Nevin;1849822]Pine tends to have a lot of knots which can make getting a good clear board a problem.../QUOTE]

    That could just as easily be: "[Spruce] tends to have a lot of knots which can make getting a good clear board a problem..."

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Most people don't understand just what a specialized field selecting, processing and using 'tonewood' is. I don't remember what the percentage of spruce trees is suitable for instrument tops, but it's quite a small percentage. Take into consideration that many of those trees are protected from being cut (a good thing), fall and rot on the ground (a good thing for forests), or are cut and used for pulpwood, lumber or other uses (a good thing for the businesses that do that) and we see that very little spruce is suitable and made available to luthiers.

    I'm not sure that I've ever encountered white pine wood that I would consider suitable for instrument tops, but it could be out there.

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    Mandolin user MontanaMatt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    I just built a sill on top of a stairwell wall out of a big piece of hemlock. It has lovely straight grain, and had a nice tone when struck. Anyone hear of tops out of hemlock?
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    My guess regarding pine as a tone wood is that in the hundreds of years of violin construction it is likely early builders found it inferior to the spruces popular today. That doesn't mean that some one hasn't found a piece of pine that worked well.
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    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Wow, the is nice looking wood! It would be beautiful as a instrument wood but I have no idea how it would work out.

    @Dagger Gordon that has a lot of the tonal characteristics i hear in that piece of wood I mentioned. I really do wish I would have held it back to experiment with but I had to get the cabinets out and had no time to start the process over again for one shelf.

    I had another piece I had glued up 14" wide six feet long about 5/8 inch think after leveling and sanding. I got frustrated and pinched it. Once board split length wise the entire six feet. It also had a nice thud, but no way it would have held up under tension.
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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaMatt View Post
    ...Anyone hear of tops out of hemlock?
    Ted Davis said he tried eastern hemlock (Tsuga canadensis) for at least one guitar top. I remember him saying it wasn't very good for tops, but I'm not sure I remember why he didn't like it. Looking at the wood database, the average stiffness to weight ratio is a little less favorable than that of spruce, but that wouldn't rule it out.

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    You will enjoy this story about a guitar made from a piece of Scots pine which spent 100 years as a bar shelf in Aberdeen-shire, Scotland. I saw Jenny perform with this guitar quite recently, and I can confirm that it sounded fantastic.

    https://www.taranguitars.co.uk/blogp...jenny-sturgeon
    Very nice! But what the heck type of frets are those?! Looks like they are almost inlayed or something.
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Isn't there some species of Australian pine that's used in instrument tops? The name "King Billy" sticks with me; I'm too lazy to look it up right now (being my 78th birthday, I'm allowed to be lazy).
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Isn't there some species of Australian pine that's used in instrument tops? The name "King Billy" sticks with me; I'm too lazy to look it up right now (being my 78th birthday, I'm allowed to be lazy).
    Yep. Good quality King Billy Pine (Athrotaxis selaginoides) can sound as good as or better than any Spruce. Problem now is that it is illegal to cut down a live tree because of many years of unsustainable logging, so is hard to find any King Billy Pine wood. It grows very slowly and is native only to Tasmania. I have used Pinus radiata for the top of one mandolin, and it is one of the very best sounding mandolins I have made. However, I sorted through hundreds of pieces before I found a piece I thought might work, and have not found another piece like it since. It is also ugly so I stained the top black. Was interesting to see the looks on people's faces when they were told it was plantation grown Pinus radiata.
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Ted Davis said he tried eastern hemlock (Tsuga canadensis) for at least one guitar top. I remember him saying it wasn't very good for tops, but I'm not sure I remember why he didn't like it. Looking at the wood database, the average stiffness to weight ratio is a little less favorable than that of spruce, but that wouldn't rule it out.
    I have some of that exact board of eastern Hemlock, purchased from Ted Davis back in the day. There seemed to be very poor adhesion between the layers of that wood. It would always split on the latewood- you could practically pull the different grain layers apart with your hands. Beyond that, it seemed to have a nice tap, lightweight, and have a decent radiation ratio.
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Isn't there some species of Australian pine that's used in instrument tops? The name "King Billy" sticks with me; I'm too lazy to look it up right now (being my 78th birthday, I'm allowed to be lazy).
    Happy birthday Allen!
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    Default Re: Pine, what a tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles E. View Post
    Happy birthday Allen!
    I'll second that birthday wish at the risk of derailing the thread - hopefully not seriously. But Allen deserves no less, his contributions being so numerous and enlightening.
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