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Thread: Vintage?

  1. #26
    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    Sometimes I think I have gotten more English schooling here than in high school. My mandolins don't have gender, they are mandolins.
    That's rather archaic. Don't we call them persondolins these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    I find it interesting that in the Romance languages, the words for violin are masculine, while guitar is feminine, and mandolin is feminine in some languages but masculine in others.
    When you figure out the logic of gender in French, please explain it to the rest of it. (My linguist daughter tells me that agreement of the noun and adjective in French has to do with the sound of the two words together rather than with any characteristics of the item referred to by the noun.)
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    So how do you classify a 1910 through 1930 Gibson mandolin that just doesn't sound very good?
    And yes, I have run into quite a few of them, and some were F-4's and -5's.

    And yes, these days it's all about marketing.
    I know of a vintage* instrument dealer [*now I'm almost reluctant to use the word] who frequently states that 1931 was the best year for Martin guitars. I've spent quite a bit of time with three that were built in that year. Two of them were reasonably good, but nothing special. One was just plain weak. Not one of them did I consider to be superior. That doesn't mean that there weren't some great ones built that year, but like any other year during that period, some were much better than others.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I took French from 3rd to 8th grade, and never could make sense of its use of gender. And its spelling is as incomprehensible to me as English spelling is to people for whom the language is not native. I much prefer Spanish, which uses phonetic spelling. Much easier, except for those doggone irregular and stem-changing verbs and their 12 or 14 tenses.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I tend to think of my mandolin and guitar as feminine. A now long ago girlfriend of mine gave her mandolin a masculine name. To each his own. And no, I'm neither going to de-genderize that statement, nor apologize for it.

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  4. #28
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Older than Betty White?
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  5. #29
    Registered User Steve 2E's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    So how do you classify a 1910 through 1930 Gibson mandolin that just doesn't sound very good?
    Unmojoable?

  6. #30
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    English is one of only a very few languages in Europe or the Americas in which nouns are not normally either masculine or feminine . . . and even in English, we still have the exception of certain proper nouns, like America . . . and then there's things like Patty, Patti, Pattie, Pattee, and Paddy . . .

    I find it interesting that in the Romance languages, the words for violin are masculine, while guitar is feminine, and mandolin is feminine in some languages but masculine in others.

    By the way, "mojo" would probably classify as a masculine noun . . .
    In Italian e il maschile: il mandolino.

    <removed -- violates forum posting guidelines>

    If they'd ever had an Italian woman (of any age) say to them: Che bello, il tuo mandolino! maybe some folks might learn to save their cringes for things that matter.

    Whether a masculine or feminine word, I"ve certainly had the mojo worked on me by a few women in my life, though.

    Which only was a good thing.

    Mick
    Last edited by Mandolin Cafe; Jan-02-2022 at 10:25am.
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  8. #31
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    I took French from 3rd to 8th grade, and never could make sense of its use of gender. And its spelling is as incomprehensible to me as English spelling is to people for whom the language is not native. I much prefer Spanish, which uses phonetic spelling. Much easier, except for those doggone irregular and stem-changing verbs and their 12 or 14 tenses.



    BTW, I love (trying) to speak French. My wife is fluent. What a nightmare English would be without all the French within it.
    A French friend of ours described the language as "People trying to speak Latin when they should be speaking German."
    We grew up speaking Spanglish, the once and future language. The best slang ever. Soon with a heaping dose of Chinese rolled in.
    Blade Runner had it right.
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
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  10. #32
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Rather than French (etc), it’s traditional for English speakers in the UK to speak “Foreign”; i.e. English, spoken slowly, in a loud voice.

  11. #33
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    For those that are apparently being offended by some terms being used here you should all think about your own contributions to this thread. For everyone else, other than a few small infractions this has been pretty easy to handle as a moderator. The Cafe has always been a nurturing community and let's all make an effort to keep it that way. Carry on.
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  13. #34

    Default Re: Vintage?

    Back to the original posting....

    Antique dealers consider something 100 years old to be an antique. Newer than that is a collectable.

    Not sure where "vintage" comes into play, other than as a marketing term that sounds better than "used guitar."

  14. #35
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    FWIW I checked in with the Wikipedia article on the term as applied to musical instruments.

    So the collective opinion contributing to Wikipedia says, "While any piece of equipment of sufficient age can be considered vintage, in the 2010s the term is typically applied to instruments and gear from the 1970s and earlier." —really doesn't mean all that much, does it?

    Some other interesting discussion in that article but more general opinions.

    As early as the 1970s, musicians began to recognize the value of older instruments from the 1940s and 1950s. Among guitar aficionados, the mass production of both acoustic and electric guitars served to highlight the quality hand workmanship, crafting, finishing and materials of older instruments. Historians such as George Gruhn helped to codify both the monetary value and sound quality of these instruments.
    And, of course, nothing mentioned about mandolins or other acoustic fretted instruments.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    “Vintage” makes me think old and good/desirable. If the instrument isn’t good/desirable, then it’s just old. My 1984 Ford Tempo would be, by definition in the auto community, “classic.” But it was neither good or desirable, so it’s long been scrap metal…

    Of course, that’s all my opinion and in no way based on any formal definition or science.

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    Default Re: Vintage?

    "MandolinX?"
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  19. #38
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen View Post
    " How old is a vintage computer or cell phone?
    Early yesterday morning if the marketing is to be believed.
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  20. #39
    Registered User Drew Egerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    What year will my Northfield become vintage? It certainly has the quality and look to get there one day. Maybe 2075? I doubt I will live to see the day lol. Of course maybe all wooden instruments will be vintage one day.
    The same struggle applies to cars where you'll start to see something from 1985 at a car show. For my tastes, vintage cars end somewhere around 1975 and mandolins somewhere around 1930? Why is hard to justify other than because I think so.
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    I remember touring the Moet & Chandon cellar in Epernais a few years ago. We were told that the majority of the Champagne they produced was not “Vintage”; i.e. that the bottles didn’t have dates on them. Those bottles which did, even if it was this years date, could be considered “vintage”. I can recommend both the tour and the sampling session afterwards!

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  23. #41

    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    I remember touring the Moet & Chandon cellar in Epernais a few years ago. We were told that the majority of the Champagne they produced was not “Vintage”; i.e. that the bottles didn’t have dates on them. Those bottles which did, even if it was this years date, could be considered “vintage”. I can recommend both the tour and the sampling session afterwards!
    Another can of semantic worms: Champagne (and for that matter, could be whisky): Vintage means all the grapes in that brew are from one year. Possible, but not usual, since they like to mix different years. In Scotch, a vintage is the year the stuff was distilled, but could be from last year’s grains. So, most Champagne we see has no date on it. This year’s batch we might have popped this week, if all from this year, is vintage, and may be so labelled. For booze that gets better with time, the elapsed age (before bottling) is what’s advertised, not the year it was distilled. Perfectly clear…
    So, I can say fairly confidently that my orange juice this morning is vintage 2021.

  24. #42
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    As this thread has demonstrated, there are too many different contexts for "vintage" to be strictly defined. Vintage can be defined by age - 20 years old, 30 years old, whatever. Or it can be defined as of a certain period - '70s vintage, or '30s vintage, for example. Or a vintage instrument can be defined by value, as having a value higher than its intrinsic value as a used, utility instrument. However, these definitions do not necessarily overlap. A mandolin can be old enough to qualify as vintage-age and it can be from a certain vintage-period, yet it could still have no vintage value. Twenty years from now it still may have no vintage value. The value of an instrument will not change just because it meets or does not meet some definition of vintage. I'd suggest accepting "vintage" as a broad-based term to distinguish older instruments from newer ones, in whatever way you choose to perceive old-vs-new, and appreciate the instruments for what they are.

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  26. #43
    still Lefty & French Philippe Bony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    I remember touring the Moet & Chandon cellar in Epernais a few years ago. We were told that the majority of the Champagne they produced was not “Vintage”; i.e. that the bottles didn’t have dates on them. Those bottles which did, even if it was this years date, could be considered “vintage”. I can recommend both the tour and the sampling session afterwards!
    No offense, but for the record, it's Epernay, not Epernais. Sorry, I hope I'm not rude here, Philippe.

  27. #44
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    Mojo. Looks like some drift going on for this word. If it now implies ‘worn’ or ‘distressed’ it’s drifted very far from even recent American usage, which is more at ‘magical
    ’ or even ‘sexy’. Plus, it’s a cultural appropriation which has its own problems.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I don't mind mojo as a descriptive term although I think at times it mean nothing except that a person thinks something is cool which means it is a relatively meaningless term. When I think mojo I would not say poorly repaired but I can see it from the point of view of a playable instrument that might not made from the highest grades of materials or workmanship but still produces desirable tone. Some of this has to do with old players choosing that modest brand like Kay or Harmony as their iconic instrument. For instance, I have a Kay Jumbo flattop that has mojo (to me) and it has a screwed on bridge and a baseball bat neck but sounds pretty close to some of my favorite Gibsons. Still if it was cracked down the top and filled with plastic wood, that would be bad mojo to me.
    I've heard the word "mojo" used mostly in contexts of guitars, particularly electric and used to play blues.

    Now on the guitar forums the meaning is quite diverse and subjective.

    Frankly I almost never use the term.

    As for "vintage", a lot of the stuff they pass off as vintage used to be called "second-hand" or "used". Plus a mediocre guitar from the 1960's is still a mediocre guitar, just older.

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  29. #45
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    I like the term 'mojo' for certain instruments: yes, it's kinda vague, but to me denotes that ineffable combination of age, attractive wear, decent condition, sound quality, and playability. But mojo, and damage, or neglect and abuse, are very different: the former is good, the latter, not. 'Mojo' can also convey that (imagined) connection to earlier eras and players, which some(many?)of us seek in owning 'vintage' instruments...of whatever year.

    For example: I recently bought, repaired, then sold, a 1912-ish F-2 black top mando. Oh, it was heavily worn, in good ways, and poorly repaired, or damaged in others. It came from a shop in Dallas, with the squirrelly-ist home made case I'd ever seen(useless as a case, but nice folk art). Somebody, or -bodies, played the heck out of it, and kept it going, despite not having the skills to do it properly. The stories it could have told, I'm guessing. That one was the definition of mojo, for me.

    Ok, I'll stop now...

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  31. #46
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    ... Plus a mediocre guitar from the 1960's is still a mediocre guitar, just older.
    Perfect.
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  33. #47
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Anybody thinking about the "quasi-mojo" (not the Hunchback of Notre Dame!) imparted by "distressing" of new instruments? We discussed Gibson's Distressed Master Model F-5 here at length, but there are also factory-distressed Fender "relics" and "closet classics," and I'm sure there are other companies doing it.

    The advertising for these talks about their "vintage vibe" and similar terms. Personally, I do my own "distressing," and my instruments show it. Still, there seems to be sales appeal in adding "instant vintage mojo" to new instruments.
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  35. #48
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Anybody thinking about the "quasi-mojo" (not the Hunchback of Notre Dame!) imparted by "distressing" of new instruments? We discussed Gibson's Distressed Master Model F-5 here at length, but there are also factory-distressed Fender "relics" and "closet classics," and I'm sure there are other companies doing it.

    The advertising for these talks about their "vintage vibe" and similar terms. Personally, I do my own "distressing," and my instruments show it. Still, there seems to be sales appeal in adding "instant vintage mojo" to new instruments.
    I personally wouldn't pay extra for that, but each to their own.

    As the owner of the F2 mentioned by Dave above, i really appreciate the "looks worn because it sounds great - and it took time to get there" vibe that it has.

    I'll probably never have the "self distressed" look that Allen's talking about, because I started playing too late in life to put that amount of years onto something myself. So either one, a new "distressed" instrument, or an older one like the F2 are a tad disingenuous for a newbie like myself. That said, I'll go for "honest" vs "artificial", and just appreciate the older one for its well earned cachet.

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  37. #49
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    ...I do my own "distressing," and my instruments show it...
    I've been working on distressing my F5G since the day it came home from Stan Jay's place in 2005. I understand totally.
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  39. #50
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    ...That said, I'll go for "honest" vs "artificial"...
    The oft mentioned description of "Honest play wear". I used that often in my descriptions in my selling days because it sounded much better than beat to cr@p. It's all in how you look at it. My late playing partner Gene Rosenow had this old Gibson guitar that was beyond beat. One day I was converting a VHS tape to digital format and I realized I was looking at that guitar new. It didn't look right to me.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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