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Thread: Vintage?

  1. #1
    Registered User Dan Adams's Avatar
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    Default Vintage?

    So what constitutes or determines ‘vintage?’ I’m either curious or on a rant. I see instruments listed on a popular auction site or on the ‘List’ marketed as vintage, as late as the 70’s and 80’s? I have a an old Gibson built in the teens I consider vintage. Instruments I own from the 70’s and 80’s, not so much. Fifty years or older? Seems like an over used term to me?
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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    For 2 or 3 decades, the term vintage referred to high quality instruments of significant age.
    In the fretted instrument world, it was applied almost exclusively to older instruments made by Gibson, Martin, Vega, John D'Angelico, Fairbanks, S.S. Stewart, etc.

    During those days, we would never have applied the word "vintage" to instruments made by companies such as Kay, and certainly not to those made by Ventura, Lyle, Univox, and so on.

    That has all changed, largely due indiscriminate use of the word with the advent of internet advertising, and specifically due to operations like ebay and reverb. Now, the term is basically meaningless. I suppose its current meaning is anything that is at least 15 or 20 years old, no matter what the quality.

    I see the same thing happening to the word "luthier," whose meaning was a highly skilled and experienced craftsman who built instruments or performed sensitive repairs. Now it seems to be used by anybody who takes it upon themselves to attempt to replace tuners, perform minor adjustments on electric instruments, or adjust a truss rod, whether they know what they are doing or not.

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  5. #3
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    In the wine world, vintage means grape harvest; a vintage wine is one whose age you know. So a 2020 Gamza is no less a vintage wine than a 1929 Pauillac.

    But here on the Cafe, vintage means pre-1945.
    Last edited by Bruce Clausen; Dec-31-2021 at 10:31pm.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    When I was a kid antique was officially and object that was 100+ years old. I think that definition has changed. And back then there were new and used instruments. Vintage came later and was something not quite an antique but used but with quality and value. It sure who started using it for instruments but Bruce is correct that it first referred to the heritage of wines. I think perhaps Gruhn or Mandolin Brothers or other dealers if that era of that era who might have started using that term.
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    I remember starting this same thread years ago when I first came here. I agree, my definition of vintage doesn't seem to correspond with what is a considered a vintage instrument these days. I also have trouble with people flocking to what were crappy instruments to begin with that we were forced to play in the 60's as there were no inexpensive alternatives to them and thinking they have "mojo". I just remember my fingers bleeding.
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  11. #6
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    I guess some of us are showing our age here. When I was a kid, guitars were either Silvertone, Airline, Harmony or Kay. We heard of Gibsons and so on but no one we knew played them, and Asian imports didn't yet exist. But playing the guitars we had really hurt.

    Sad to think of those mid-sixties $30 guitars as desirable antiques.

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  13. #7

    Default Re: Vintage?

    Dictionaries are divided, even on usage for wine. Some mention the concept of quality, some more indicative of a range of ages, newer than antique, or more than x years. Google nGram, (numerical usage in books only) shows about a tripling of usage since about 1950. Furniture and car folk differ in what is, and how old. Of course, internet usage seems to have no particular definition, and mostly means ‘I think this is old’ where ‘old’ may be just a few years, discontinued, or alien.

    Now nothing made in my lifetime could possibly be vintage!
    Classic, maybe. Notable, iconic, sure.
    I could go with 1945, cause I’m 1946, but the antique vending people think 1982, or 40 years.
    So, given that what we used to think was literacy is now more endangered than rhinos, a clear definition may be hopeless.
    Perhaps a new, melodious term could be found.

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    Default Re: Vintage?

    I know this may derail the thread, but since Mike mentioned it, I don't care for the prevalence of the word "mojo" being used to describe and even promote instruments that are heavily worn, or abused, or poorly repaired; and to use plain, old-fashioned terms, are in poor or even awful condition. A consequence of the "grunge" phenomenon??

    I dislike it even more when someone has the unmitigated gall to couple the word "mojo" with "excellent condition."

    And I especially dislike the use of the term "well-loved" to describe an instrument that has had the tar beaten out of it. That ain't love.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Q: Is a vintage wine that has turned to vinegar still considered to be "vintage??"

    OK, I'm done.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jan-01-2022 at 1:44am.

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  16. #9
    Worlds ok-ist mando playr Zach Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    OK boomer

    J.K. I mean no offense.

    I'll go back to my corner now
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    At least this "boomer" has learned not to look upon older or younger folks with contempt simply because their age or tastes might be different.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jan-01-2022 at 4:49am.

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  20. #11
    Mandolingerer Bazz Jass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    I see the word "vintage," when referring to instruments, as being pre significant and permanent changes.

    I consider vintage Martins to be anything before they switched from Brazilian rosewood to Indian in 69.

    Now I considered that to be the benchmark for a vintage Martin when I started to care about such things in the mid-80s. This hasn't changed in 35 years. I don't now count early 80s Martins as vintage.

    Some may count vintage Fenders as being from the preCBS era. Or vintage Gibson mandolins as being pre WW2.

    However you decide, it mostly has nothing to do with how many years old an instrument is, rather than from which era it is.

    Vintage does not mean antique, folks.

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  22. #12
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Not sure whether the rising prices of older "starter" instruments is from a rising tide lifts all boats, or just nostalgia, real or imagined. Even with a good setup, a lot of old instruments are not fun to play. While I sometimes wish for another Danelectro electric guitar like my first one, five minutes playing one of those reminds me of why I don't own it anymore.
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    In the world of motor vehicles and travel trailers, "vintage" simply means 25 years or older. As all things get blended by the internet osterizer we see several terms getting applied between unrelated fields.

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  25. #14
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    At least this "boomer" has learned not to look upon older or younger folks with contempt simply because their age or tastes might be different.
    Point taken

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    Default Re: Vintage?

    In my mind, vintage has simply become a marketing term. Ultimately, the word derives from wine harvesting but its use depends upon the context in which it’s being used. As Mandobart points out, a vintage car is one over 25 years old. This may be the case in the US but, in the UK the term is usually applied to vehicles built before 1927 (unless they’re really old in which case they’re termed “veteran”).

    Personally, I’d rather worry about the actual age of a thing rather than what somebody might call things of a certain age.

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  28. #16

    Default Re: Vintage?

    Mojo. Looks like some drift going on for this word. If it now implies ‘worn’ or ‘distressed’ it’s drifted very far from even recent American usage, which is more at ‘magical
    ’ or even ‘sexy’. Plus, it’s a cultural appropriation which has its own problems.
    ‘This mandolin is magical!’ could apply to something new, well-preserved, or worn: the mojo relates to function.
    ‘This mandolin is beat up, shows its age, well-loved (a euphemism): doesn’t say magical, great sound, has power.
    ‘This mandolin has mojo!’ What do you mean?
    I don’t mind slang as long as it isn’t especially offensive, but I also, as a prissy East Coast person, think casual appropriation of other people’s slang is phony, so I won’t do it intentionally. Musicians have their own language, but I can’t use it.

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  30. #17
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    I know this may derail the thread, but since Mike mentioned it, I don't care for the prevalence of the word "mojo" being used to describe and even promote instruments that are heavily worn, or abused, or poorly repaired; and to use plain, old-fashioned terms, are in poor or even awful condition. A consequence of the "grunge" phenomenon??
    I don't mind mojo as a descriptive term although I think at times it mean nothing except that a person thinks something is cool which means it is a relatively meaningless term. When I think mojo I would not say poorly repaired but I can see it from the point of view of a playable instrument that might not made from the highest grades of materials or workmanship but still produces desirable tone. Some of this has to do with old players choosing that modest brand like Kay or Harmony as their iconic instrument. For instance, I have a Kay Jumbo flattop that has mojo (to me) and it has a screwed on bridge and a baseball bat neck but sounds pretty close to some of my favorite Gibsons. Still if it was cracked down the top and filled with plastic wood, that would be bad mojo to me.

    Of course, we all have terms others use that we can't stand. "Gibby" for a Gibson instrument is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
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  32. #18
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    As Mandobart points out, a vintage car is one over 25 years old.

    "Life expectancy" seems to be a factor here. Whatever word for "old" you choose, a car from the 1990's is pretty old, but not a mandolin of the same age. My 1957 classical guitar is old, but not my 1923 violin, etc. How old is a vintage computer or cell phone?

  33. #19
    Worlds ok-ist mando playr Zach Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Of course, we all have terms others use that we can't stand. "Gibby" for a Gibson instrument is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
    Call me an over sensitive Millennial, but anytime I read or hear an instrument of any kind called her, she, etc. It's incredibly cringy to me.

  34. #20
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Yup. Even worse for me is a mandolin "born July 9th, 1923".

  35. #21

    Default Re: Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Wilson View Post
    Call me an over sensitive Millennial, but anytime I read or hear an instrument of any kind called her, she, etc. It's incredibly cringy to me.
    As we get more woke (/s), gendering anything is passing away. When I hear some boating guy say “Them is a right yar vessel” I’ll know we’re done.

  36. #22
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    This seems like a problem invented by English speakers. For a Frenchman, "she" is the only pronoun available for a mandolin. For an Italian, it has to be "he".

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  38. #23
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    English is one of only a very few languages in Europe or the Americas in which nouns are not normally either masculine or feminine . . . and even in English, we still have the exception of certain proper nouns, like America . . . and then there's things like Patty, Patti, Pattie, Pattee, and Paddy . . .

    I find it interesting that in the Romance languages, the words for violin are masculine, while guitar is feminine, and mandolin is feminine in some languages but masculine in others.

    By the way, "mojo" would probably classify as a masculine noun . . .

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  40. #24
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    Sometimes I think I have gotten more English schooling here than in high school. My mandolins don't have gender, they are mandolins.
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    Default Re: Vintage?

    All of my mandolins are vintage, that is, of a recent vintage (1981 being the oldest). Then there are my pre-war guitars, the ones I bought before telling my spouse what I paid, then the war began, lol!
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