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Thread: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

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    Default David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    David Crosby makes some comments in a Fretboard Journal interview about the 50th anniversary of his album If Only I Could Remember My Name which I found quite interesting.

    I can relate to this, I think. I'm interested to hear people's views.

    https://www.fretboardjournal.com/fea...me-turning-50/



    "I think one of the reasons the guitars sound so good on that album is that we were not using electronic tuners. We had to tune until we could hear the overtone structure pop into existence, and a lot of it is open tunings. You know when you get it perfect, a lot of overtones appear… harmonics… and the guitar will create notes that you didn’t even play because of that. If you are good enough at doing it, you can get something that’s more finely tuned then the machine will do, and it makes a difference. The amount of harmonics and overtone structure that’s in there makes the guitar sound ####ing ridiculous."

    FJ: Incredible. Is this a skill that you still employ yourself?

    DC: Anybody with good ears can do it if they know to listen for it. When you tune a string into with several other strings, you can hear the overtones appear when you get it perfect.
    David A. Gordon

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    Registered User Bren's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I agree to the extent that an electronic tuner on a mandolin only gets you in the right neighbourhood.
    Then you have to sweeten it with your ears.
    Bren

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Certainly how I like to tune.
    Get an A then dial the others in, then re-tweak the lot having corrected the A for the effect of tuning the others.
    When I played in a trio, we always tuned to the mandola A
    The only thing I find is that different days my ears lie about whether I'm flat or sharp, so I will choose the wrong one in a pair as correct, then put them both out of tune. So I now do a quick flick of the same note on another string first.

    Another thing I've found is that rather than using full plectrum strokes to fine tune, I brush the strings with a finger so I'm mostly only getting the highest frequencies from the string with little fundamental to muddy them. It's weird because even with the orchestra tuning up, if I play them pianissimo & put my ear close the instrument I can hear them really clearly. So they must only be cluttered out by the actual string fundamental movements on the instrument itself.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I wonder if the bands David Crosby played in were using a lot of open tunings and lots of open strings in their chords? I made a few acoustic guitars, and the method I was taught involved fitting a bridge saddle cut with compensation for each open string octave. This was set for each string with a strobotuner using the string set most likely to be used (a bit like setting up an electric with individually moveable bridge saddles). Ideally we'd have done that for whatever open tuning a player most used. That appeared to produce great ringing open string chords and octave harmonics. However once the guitar was played with fewer open strings, or a capo put on or a barre chord played, it was the same as any other guitar with tempered tuning fret positions.

    In UK folk music at least, most tunable instruments use a cheap tuner and tune imprecisely to that - also, lots of UK folk fiddle players play imprecisely (flat tones using left hand 4th fingers are very common). Some may play off of 'natural' scales that aren't the same as tempered ones, particularly when playing bagpipe music. This is most apparent when you have a fretted tempered instrument like a mandolin playing with a bagpipe tuned to a natural scale - I guess that doesn't happen a lot in bluegrass

    There's also the question of whether tuning to the mechanical exactitude of a electronic tuner sounds best to the ears. One way or the other, I think it's an area which tends to be neglected far more than it should be.

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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I'll tune to the electronic gizmo, but it has its drawbacks. If my battery is weak, it'll tune wrong, for one thing. Or it'll tune 3 strings perfectly and the low D will be off just enough to be noticeable when I play a run. I've occasionally just given up and tuned to the room/my co-musicians (especially with a fixed-note instrument like an accordion or a concertina). Like so many other things, it's dependent on how well you can hear what's going on so you can fix on the fly.
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I can relate. I've never owned an e-tuner. Have used one on stage a few times - when I couldn't hear my bass.

    I play wire harp, which is rather notorious for requiring perfection in tuning - due to the florid overtones produced by the strings and ringing freely over the large resonant box, it's simply de rigeuer to use the ears. I think we talked about this some time ago here..

    It all started with playing 12-string guitars as a kid, which were not exactly premium models - necessitating a bit of 'just intonation." Being able to tune an instrument is second nature for me, or perhaps even first nature, so I've never used e-tuners.


    *Ah, here's the thread - https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-things-better

    Here are some resources:


    http://simonchadwick.net/2013/10/just-intonation.html

    https://hpschd.nu/index.html?nav/nav...thagorean.html

    http://www.earlygaelicharp.info/tuning/tables.htm[/QUOTE]

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    I wonder if the bands David Crosby played in were using a lot of open tunings and lots of open strings in their chords?
    Yes, he and Stills use lots of 'open' tunings

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I remember watching Tony Rice demonstrate tuning his guitar on "an intimate lesson with TR" , he tuned his D string to a tuning fork on the 7th fret harmonic and then tunes the other strings relative to that by making sure that the sound of a perfect 4th was heard when playing adjacent strings. He explained that was based on what classical violinists do (except they listen for a perfect 5th sound as with mando's).

    What I found really interesting was that he said that sometimes he needs to tweak the tuning if he starts playing in a different key, i.e. moving from E major to Cmaj may require a slight adjustment. I think that was because of the compromise that fretted instruments have where equal temperament is used rather than perfect temperament.

    This definitely supports the idea that ears should be better than tuners.

    As an aside, in Irish music sessions it is commonplace, at least in my experience, to tune to the box (accordion) as that has a fixed pitch. Hopefully the box is perfectly calibrated to the same frequencies as electronic tuners, but if not then the electronic tuner is no use anyway.
    Last edited by Paul Cowham; Jan-03-2022 at 6:58pm.

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Most clip-on tuners, even if they're analog in how they work, are digital in display – there's an area that the tuner, as far as the tuner's display is concerned, represents perfectly-in-tune.

    I would think that most of us who use these convenient little tuners use them to get within that perfectly-in-tune area, and then finesse from there, using our ears.

    The only time I accept the tuner's verdict is in live situations, when I don't want the audience to hear me tuning (and I always think, "good enough for rock'n'roll" ).
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    At home I tune by ear after getting close with a clip-on electric tuner.

    On stage I use the same clip-on tuner and check it against a pedal tuner... like mentioned above... it's good enough for rock'n'roll the floor tuner also cuts the signal which is nice so folks don't have to hear me tune

    At a loud jam I look for the Guitar player or Banjo player who seems most concerned if they are in tune (always checking their tuner- making faces) and tune to them

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    "when you get it perfect, a lot of overtones appear… harmonics… and the guitar will create notes that you didn’t even play because of that."

    This is the bit I found most interesting.
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I wonder whether that's the effect of more than one guitar hitting the exact same frequency together, which might easily be mistaken for one particular guitar ringing out?

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    '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`' Jacob's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    The ten string extended-range classical guitar, with fully chromatic, sympathetic string resonance was conceived in 1963 by Narciso Yepes, and constructed by José Ramírez III. The normal tuning of the four strings added "also incorporates all the natural resonance that the instrument lacked in eight of twelve notes of the equal tempered scale".
    Yepes 10 String Classical Guitar
    Have heard one played live up close only once. The enhanced sound was remarkable.

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The ten string extended-range classical guitar, with fully chromatic, sympathetic string resonance was conceived in 1963 by Narciso Yepes, and constructed by José Ramírez III. The normal tuning of the four strings added "also incorporates all the natural resonance that the instrument lacked in eight of twelve notes of the equal tempered scale".
    Yepes 10 String Classical Guitar
    Have heard one played live up close only once. The enhanced sound was remarkable.






    I like Egberto Gismonti quite a bit - and must confess that I WANT A 10 STRING GUITAR!




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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Very interesting, Jacob - including the parts where it says Ramirez first said it was impossible, then built the instrument, whereupon Segovia condemned the idea of a 10 string guitar without having played or even heard it. How many new ideas meet that sort of attitude?

    Are the additional four strings sympathetic, or played?

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    My understanding is that they were primarily sympathetic for Yepes. Different approaches in videos above.

    Last edited by Jacob; Jan-04-2022 at 1:50pm.

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Assuming this is a direct quote, it is to his credit that he said "I think one of the reasons the guitars sound so good on that album is that we were not using electronic tuners."

    There really is a lot to the area of music theory that relates to tuning, temperament, fret positions, string gauges, etc., and a lot of thought can be applied to the situation. Playing perfectly in tune on fretted instruments is a pipe dream when we get right down to it. Playing acceptably in tune is up to the individual, and given the vagaries of scale length, string gauge, fret placement, action height and so forth, it is up to the individual to play in tune to the best of his/her ability for the song/tune in question. In most cases, an electronic tuner will only get you close, but in many cases it is close enough.

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    To really muddy the waters, the harmonics are not tempered to any temperament scheme. Harmonics are in a just scale. It is fortunate that their contribution diminishes with frequency because the upper harmonics could become badly out of tune with some notes of a tempered scale and make it impossible to to ever play in tune at least in some keys.

    On top of that how hard you hit the notes and how hard you press the frets will pull an instrument in or out of tune. You can observe this with an electronic tuner. Hit the notes harder or softer, press harder or softer on fretted notes and you can watch it move a few cents.

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I've watched musicians tune with a tuning fork. I have to say, it's impressive (if they are good at it). It's a very nuanced process.
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I remembered posting this in a previous thread on intonation and rather than try to write it all down again I 'copy-and-pasted' it here. The last part is the most pertinent to this discussion. As opposed to performance situations it is relatively easy to tune specifically for a song or tune when recording, so that the 'important' part of the instrument is best in tune. That very well may have been what they did on the recording mentioned in the OP.

    A few things:
    -Yes, equal temperament exists and can be considered a compromise. When we use frets we are almost completely bound by it.
    -Even accurately placed frets are not perfect because of string gauge and tension differences. It may not even be possible to have perfect intonation at all frets with only one string, and it is definitely impossible (with normal frets) with more than one string.
    -Ideally, the 12th fret note will be an exact octave of the open string, but there is nothing magical about that. If you play the 7th fret (for example) more than the 12th fret, why not set the intonation so it is correct at the 7th fret and allow a slight error at the 12th rather than the other way around?
    -Electronic tuners don't care what note you start with if you use the tuner for all strings. If, like I do, you tune one string (I use a tuning fork) and then tune the rest of the strings to that, there may end up being slight differences depending on what string you start with, but any differences will be very slight is they exist at all.
    -Tuning is and will always be a compromise. The best we can do is reduce errors to a minimum through string gauge choices, good fret work, and adjustments at the bridge and nut, and then accept the inevitable errors. We can move errors to more suitable areas of the fingerboard so that we can play more 'in tune', and we can tune the instrument specifically for certain songs or tunes to improve intonation.

    One of my favorite guitarists that I've have heard play live is Martin Simpson. He plays in various different tunings in the course of a show, and changing tunings is something that throws all of our careful bridge and nut 'compensating' out the window. As he would talk to the audience between tunes he would re-tune his guitar by ear, often repeatedly playing a figure and adjusting the tuning. During the next tune or song, especially when he would sustain a chord or a note or two, the guitar would ring out so exactly in tune that it made a definite impression on me. He did that by tuning the guitar so that errors fell somewhere other than the frets where he needed the intonation to be good for that song, all the while speaking to the audience to spin a web and draw them into the song. A masterful entertainer for sure, but a big part of that was his technical ability to tune his guitar.

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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I do think that Crosby's argument (that the guitars sound great because they didn't use electronic tuners) is a bit misleading. There are loads of recordings of guitars that were (a) made before electronic tuners existed, and (b) don't sound as good as David Crosby's guitars.

    Tuning by ear doesn't mean that you'll be more in tune, or sound more amazing than if you had used a tuner. "DC: Anybody with good ears can do it if they know to listen for it." – easier said than done.
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandobar View Post
    I've watched musicians tune with a tuning fork. I have to say, it's impressive (if they are good at it). It's a very nuanced process.
    Back in the 1970s, I had an A-440 tuning fork that I would use to tune my mandolin. I hit it on my knee, set it on the top, and tune the A pair to that pitch, and then tune the other strings to the A. It was what we did.

    If playing with other musicians, we would tune to the piano, or if no piano, to a tuning fork on a guitar top. Or, sometimes, when lazy, we would just tune to whichever guitarist was leading the jam.

    My first girl friend was an oboeist, and claimed that she had perfect pitch. She said that her orchestra tuned to her oboe which may have been the standard practice prior to electronic tuners.

  38. #23
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by James Vwaal View Post
    She said that her orchestra tuned to her oboe which may have been the standard practice prior to electronic tuners.
    Tuning to the oboe's A continued to be standard practice after the advent of electronic tuners (the oboist, however, might tune to an electronic tuner).
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    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    It's an interesting and endless conversation. While I do do a tiny bit of tempering on the guitar depending on the key I'm playing in, I've found that, in general, I spend a whole lot less time fiddling with tuning ever since I got an electronic tuner that I really liked (TC Electoronic clip-on Poly).

    And I have to say that most of the bands and sessions I play in these days sound a whole lot more in tune more of the time now that most folks seem to be using e-tuners, too.
    Just one guy's opinion
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The ten string extended-range classical guitar, with fully chromatic, sympathetic string resonance was conceived in 1963 by Narciso Yepes, and constructed by José Ramírez III. The normal tuning of the four strings added "also incorporates all the natural resonance that the instrument lacked in eight of twelve notes of the equal tempered scale".
    Yepes 10 String Classical Guitar
    Have heard one played live up close only once. The enhanced sound was remarkable.
    As it happens, I play a 10 string mandolin with extra D strings on the bottom (rather than C). I think it does maybe make a difference in the way we're talking about here.

    Incidentally, I saw Narciso Yepes when I was a boy. I do remember him sounding fantastic. I think I have a CD somewhere. I must dig it out.
    David A. Gordon

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