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Thread: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

  1. #26
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    I wonder if the bands David Crosby played in were using a lot of open tunings ...
    HA! Here's just one that, IMHO, still qualifies as "a lot":

    Check out Still's "Suite Judy Blue Eyes", tuned E-E-E-E-B-E, low to high. I won't bore you w/ octaves vs. unison.
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  2. #27
    Harley Marty
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bevan View Post
    Tuning to the oboe's A continued to be standard practice after the advent of electronic tuners (the oboist, however, might tune to an electronic tuner).
    When I played in a Concert Band we tuned to the oboe. This is because the oboe has the least amount of tuning flexibility/range of all instruments.

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  4. #28
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    As it happens, I play a 10 string mandolin with extra D strings on the bottom (rather than C). I think it does maybe make a difference in the way we're talking about here.
    I play nyckelharpa (at least in theory - where is it, now?). This is a Swedish keyed bowed fiddle type instrument with a full set of 12 chromatic low tension sympathetic strings running under the bowed melody strings. The keys stop the strings from the side, but otherwise in a similar way to fingers on mainstrem stringed instruments. It appears to have four melody strings - on 'European tuned' nyckelharpas these are most commonly tuned C G D A (low to high) like a viola. I say 'appears', because on most there are no keys for the low C string, so you can't play a tune on it - there are keys for the G D A strings. The sympathetic strings (tuned an octave below where you'd expect for their gauge) produce a shimmering reverb like addition to the sound when the melody strings are played. The C string is sometimes played as a drone under the G string. I experimented with detensioning the low C string, and that did make an audible difference to the G D A string melodies - the sounds became muddier and less distinct.

    I wonder whether a set of sympathetic strings might achieve a similar effect to the additional 4 strings on a 10 string guitar, without the increased weight and size of the 10 string guitar fingerboard?

  5. #29
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Jazz guitarist Tim Lerch has wondered whether the lack of 'individual' jazz voices today might be due, at least in part, by electronic tuning. Everyone's ear is slightly different, so the couple of cents difference gives you your 'sound'. The Red Hot Chili Peppers 'Under the Bridge' has a slightly sharp B string, giving it its 'pop' I guess. I don't know he's 100% right, but its intriguing.

    (My ear is shot from listening to old blues and country records where the temper varies - sometimes A is 430, sometimes 450. Things in quarter flats and half sharps, so I proudly use tuners.)
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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Strings don't have to be strictly 'sympathetic' to affect the sound of played strings. Anyone who is familiar with the sound of banjos can easily hear the difference when the instrument is tuned alternatively to standard. A friend (and excellent banjo player and musician in general) spent some time experimenting with tuning his 5 string banjo is 4ths rather than standard open G 5 string banjo tuning. He was able to learn standard melodies and play "normal" tunes, but the sound of the banjo was distinctly different because of the overtone series of the strings. Strings that are not being played vibrate sympathetically whether or not they are intended as sympathetic strings, so different tunings sound different. Tenor banjos sound very different from 5 string banjos because of the 5ths tuning, even if the difference in scale length is taken into consideration. (We can capo a 5 string to a similar scale length.)

    It is obvious from the frequent need to touch up our tuning when we play that strings do not stay exactly in tune for very long. To me that means that tuning "too perfectly" and loosing the character of our sound are not likely possibilities. Even if we could tune perfectly with an electronic tuner, the question is; for how long?

  7. #31

    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    I wonder whether a set of sympathetic strings might achieve a similar effect to the additional 4 strings on a 10 string guitar, without the increased weight and size of the 10 string guitar fingerboard?
    It would be a different sound, not sure how similar.

    Another harp example: even if we're only playing (striking) some of the strings, all of the strings on the instrument are 'in play' - that is, vibrating. If all of the strings are not tuned properly, there is an overall diminishment of sound quality. There's quite a bit of synergistic effect, musical instruments. The vibrating strings interact together, for better and worse. On harp, I rarely play the lowest strings - but they are playing, all the time - it's absolutely imperative that they are tuned precisely.

    If I may suggest, one of the things that give harps their lovely sound is just this - overall resonance of sympathetic vibrating frequencies. *And guitars and nyckelharpas and...
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jan-05-2022 at 2:41pm.

  8. #32
    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    This is the idea behind many tunings on Accordions...French Musette, Cajun Dry with thirds removed, etc
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  9. #33

    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. E View Post
    This is the idea behind many tunings on Accordions...French Musette, Cajun Dry with thirds removed, etc
    Tuning principles are the same. But there is little sympathetic vibration going on inside of an accordion - at least audibly; the reeds aren't nearly as active or responsive to vibrations as strings connected to wooden box, etc. A given accordion, with several bad reeds, can sound perfectly acceptable as long as one doesn't play the bad 'notes.' Those reeds may be vibrating slightly while the instrument is played, but the overall sound quality will be much less affected - they just don't speak/vibrate much unless they're being activated (with air column).

    Of course, my friends over on the accordion fora would prbly take exception

  10. #34

    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I can hear these types of things when I’m tuning and playing guitar but I don’t think I’ve found the sweet spot nearly as much with mandolin. I also was trained to dampen the paired string when tuning. Maybe that’s part of it? Anybody else approach our instrument like this?

  11. #35

    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    I really enjoy the mathematics of tuning, although my ear is not good enough to HEAR the differences reliably.

    As Sunburst says, equal temperament (which an electronic tuner considers "perfect") is actually a compromise: It's a little bit out of tune everywhere, except octave intervals. Why is that? It's a long story, starting from two facts: (1) Any musical interval (perceived pitch difference between two notes) is defined by the RATIO between the frequencies of the two notes, not the difference. (2) Intervals that have ratios expressed in small whole numbers are most harmonious and are truly in tune.

    The first fact is easy to illustrate. A4 in concert pitch has a frequency of 440 Hz. An octave interval is 2:1, so A3 (an octave lower) is half that, at 220 Hz, and A2 is half the frequency of A3, or 110 Hz. The difference between A2 and A3 is 110 Hz and the difference between A3 and A4 is 220 Hz, but that does not matter. It's the ratio that counts.

    Why are ratios that are expressed in small whole numbers more in tune? Because if you sound two or more of these notes together (a chord), several frequencies in the overtone series that are in the range of human hearing resonate with each other. If the tuning is good enough, these resonating overtones are audible, and that's what David Crosby is talking about. Suppose, for example, that a barbershop quartet ends a song with a chord consisting of A2 at 110 Hz, the fifth at 165 Hz (ratio of 3:2), A3 at 220, and the third at 275 Hz (ratio of 5:4). The second harmonic of the A2 resonates with the first harmonic of the fifth, at 330 Hz. The third harmonic of the A2 resonates with the first harmonic of the A3, at 440 Hz. The fourth harmonic of the A2 resonates with the first harmonic of the third, at 550 Hz -- and so on, all the way up. And it gets better, because most of the sum and difference tones resonate too. For example, the sum of the frequencies of A2 and the fifth equals the frequency of the third.

    So if we can get the best sound by tuning in ratios of small whole numbers, why don't we? To oversimplify, it's because the frequencies that are needed to achieve that ideal tuning change from key to key and from one place in the scale to another. For example, suppose we start with an A3 at 220 Hz, and go up a perfect major third, which is a ratio of 5:4. This gives us a C# at 275 Hz. Now suppose we start from that C# and go up one more major third, to an E#, which is F. The frequency will be 275 x 5/4 Hz, or 343.75 Hz. Now one more major third would get us to A4, which is an octave above our starting point, right? As you can already see, we're not going to get there: 343.75 x 5/4 is 429.6875 Hz, which is just over 10 Hz flat.

    A similar problem happens if you tune a guitar by tuning each interval between the strings so that it is a perfect fourth (a perfect third between the G and B): The high E string will be flat relative to the low E string. You need an interval of 4:1 between the frequencies of those two strings, but you will get 3.9506:1. This is why an acquaintance of mine who builds guitars and performs in a guitar quartet said: "You can't tune a guitar." You can't; you just have to decide where the out-of-tune sounds will be. And if you minimize the out-of-tuneness in one key, you'll make it worse in a distant key, which is why many guitarists re-tune frequently.

    Equal temperament enables us to stick with one frequency for each note -- which we must do when we are playing an instrument with frets -- while spreading the out-of-tuneness around so that it is bearable most of the time. (An exception is the flat seventh or "barbershop seventh"; the tempered scale just doesn't come close enough to the necessary 7:4 interval.) "Equal" means that the perceived pitch difference between each of the 12 semitones in the octave is the same, which means that the ratio between the frequencies of each note and the next semitone is the same. Mathematically, this means that the ratio for each semitone MUST be (twelfth root of 2):1, or about 1.0595:1. It also means that none of the intervals between any of the 12 notes in the scale will be expressed in small whole numbers, thus none of the intervals will truly be in tune.

    So there it is: Perfect tuning in a fretted instrument is impossible. We are always going to be compromising, and that compromising is an art.

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  13. #36

    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    The thing that makes it all squirrelly is that the harmonics or overtones are not tempered. They are pure multiples of the pitch you are playing. That is due to the physics. Fortunately the higher overtones do not contribute as much to the tone because it would make temperament impossible. That is one of many reasons banjos, with their high harmonic content in the notes, are so hard to tune and keep there.

    Crosby seemed to be talking about tuning to more of a just (non tempered) tuning with some of his open tunings to allow for this and make the sound sweeter in a particular key. The frets are still tempered though so it is hard to tell if what he says makes any sense.

  14. #37
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    "... DC: Anybody with good ears can do it if they know to listen for it. ..."

    Interestingly this was for the 50 year anniversary of this album, when he was 80 years old. Ears change with time and with various forms of abuse being heaped upon them. DC has played for eons on stage with crazy amplification surrounding him, as such I have to wonder how DC's ears were at the time of this interview, and whether he at that time still had the ability to differentiate each harmonic tone against another -- or if like most musicians on stage, he has someone setup and tune his instruments for him.

    As someone who has played in moderately high volume situations, on local stages and in jams for about 50 years, plus also enduring the sonic abuse of life for that period time, I'm not confident at all that my ears are able to differentiate at the harmonic level anymore, and I'm thankful for electronic tuners. I can still hear enough to play and enjoy music, but I won't bet the intonation comfort of everyone around me on my ability to tune perfectly without electronic assistance.

    Anyone who has jammed even just on and off for the last 50 or so years has watched jams being transformed from essentially tuning competitions into real songfests because of electronic tuners. Most of the jamming folks who are my age or older respect everyone else in the jams enough to not completely trust their own ears for tuning too. Personally, I consider it natural for the age, like wearing glasses, and each of my main playing stringed instruments has a tuner permanently attached and available to use anytime. In a pinch I can tune exclusively by ear and get close, but I'd be watching for someone to borrow a tuner from between songs, if nothing else to boost my confidence.
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    Default Re: David Crosby comments on tuning in Fretboard Journal

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Finlay View Post
    If the tuning is good enough, these resonating overtones are audible, and that's what David Crosby is talking about.
    Each to his/her own whether you use an electronic tuner or tuning fork or anything else, but when you do get these audible resonating overtones, it is a real joy to play your instrument.
    David A. Gordon

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