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Thread: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

  1. #1
    Registered User 108 Mile's Avatar
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    Default New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Hi all, I was blown away to learn that brick and mortar stores (Carters etc) will not ship mandolins into Canada! I tried several stores with the same answer…. I am thinking I will have to buy from a private seller.
    Does anyone know if Canada customs is checking/seizing instruments due to the new regulations?
    Thanks
    Charlie

  2. #2
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Anyone have a link to a government site with the new US regulations listed?

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    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    I imported a mandolin-banjo from the USA a few years ago (a private sale from the Cafe ads, and a very good experience). In that case, there were no issues with materials. However, customs duties were higher than I expected, and impossible to determine from the Canada Customs website, which, at that time, didn't list "musical instruments" as a category. I paid the duty and have no regrets, but be warned. As I understand, Canada Customs has no tolerance for restricted materials, even on antiques, the idea being to destroy the market for endangered species. I understand that American stores don't want to ship outside their country. The shipping is much more expensive than within a country, and they may have experienced problems such as: people not wanting to pay an unexpectedly-high duty; a customer not liking the instrument then wanting the dealer to pay twice for international shipping, and; tie-ups at Customs (your "express-shipped" mandolin might go through Customs in a day or in three months). For a new instrument, one possibility would be to order through a Canadian store that's used to importing instruments, and can give you a fixed price. Regarding used instruments, most of us seem to have good experiences with the Mandolin Cafe ads. Scott does a good job of eliminating the scam artists.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    I recently got a hefty tax bill in the mail from the "import fee tax office" from receiving my Apitius Custom Oliver built and sent me, what well over a year ago!

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    Registered User mingusb1's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    It may be worth looking up Canada's equivalent of our Lacey Act, which is administered by the US Fish and Wildlife Service.
    Member since 2003!

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    Registered User 108 Mile's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by William Smith View Post
    I recently got a hefty tax bill in the mail from the "import fee tax office" from receiving my Apitius Custom Oliver built and sent me, what well over a year ago!
    What was the percentage Bill?

  8. #7

    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    When you see ‘tuner buttons/trim/inlay of period materials’ in an ad, is that just code for ivory, tortoise, etc?

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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    I googled a bit since I was thinking of a trip to BC sometime. Googling "import rosewood guitar into canada" or ebony or mother of pearl or whatever leads to hours of reading, stuff like

    a 12 kg instrument containing 5 kg of parts made from Dalbergia would be outside the scope of CITES controls.
    so i'll take a solidbody guitar and lap steel with no parts that could possibly be confused for restricted materials (I probably would've taken a mandolin with mother of pearl nut...


    https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ec...sewoods-en.pdf

    https://oc.ca/en/updates-instruments...cies-material/
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    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    Anyone have a link to a government site with the new US regulations listed?
    The OP's question was about new Canadian regulations that would restrict shipments into Canada containing certain materials. I haven't heard about this, and would be glad for any info.

    By the way, unless there's been a recent change, the Canada-US free trade agreement places no customs duties on U.S. goods crossing the border into Canada or vice versa. (Goods originating in third countries will have different rules.) But shippers need to collect the normal sales taxes that apply to the shipment. Here in B.C. that'll come to 12% (5% federal, 7% provincial). That's the same 12% you'd pay in a local store, or for shipping from out of province. But some cross-border shippers seem to apply additional charges for "customs brokerage" or whatever. I used to hear that using Canada Post was the best way to avoid hidden charges. But I'm not sure if that's still true. Does anyone have recent info about this?

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    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    [QUOTE=Bruce Clausen;1850918]By the way, unless there's been a recent change, the Canada-US free trade agreement places no customs duties on U.S. goods crossing the border into Canada or vice versa. (Goods originating in third countries will have different rules.)/QUOTE]

    Sorry, but, as I said, under NAFTA, I was charged a substantial customs duty for importing an instrument from the USA, an antique (1923) at that. I've randomly had to pay duties on items ordered from the US over the years, though mostly not (These are usually at much lower prices than the mandolin-banjo cost). Check Canada Customs regulations on the internet. If you believe in so-called "Free Trade", I own a bridge in Brooklyn that I could sell you at a great price -- duty free!
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Registered User Kirk Higgins's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    I imported a Kimble F5 into Canada via a Canadian musical instrument store in August. There were no duties or customs fees charged. I paid HST on the purchase price I had negotiated with the US private vendor. The International shipping cost was $153 US and the insurance cost was $322 US. I was a bit surprised by the cost of the insurance but considering the cost of the instrument it made some sense. There was abalone/pearl? On the headstock.
    Kirk

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    Registered User O. Apitius's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by William Smith View Post
    I recently got a hefty tax bill in the mail from the "import fee tax office" from receiving my Apitius Custom Oliver built and sent me, what well over a year ago!
    I've sent you a PM Bill. I'm pretty confident you can get your money back. 'seems the customs office is quick to ignore the paperwork that I submitted and charge some people duties and taxes. So far, those affected have always gotten their money back by filing a claim and resubmitting the documents. Best of luck, Oliver
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    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Higgins View Post
    I imported a Kimble F5 into Canada via a Canadian musical instrument store in August. There were no duties or customs fees charged. I paid HST on the purchase price I had negotiated with the US private vendor. The International shipping cost was $153 US and the insurance cost was $322 US. I was a bit surprised by the cost of the insurance but considering the cost of the instrument it made some sense. There was abalone/pearl? On the headstock.
    That's called the luck of the draw. There are so many goods crossing the border that they seem to skim through Customs at times. Don't count on the same luck next time.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

  16. #14

    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by gtani7 View Post
    I googled a bit since I was thinking of a trip to BC sometime. Googling "import rosewood guitar into canada" or ebony or mother of pearl or whatever leads to hours of reading, stuff like



    so i'll take a solidbody guitar and lap steel with no parts that could possibly be confused for restricted materials (I probably would've taken a mandolin with mother of pearl nut...


    https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ec...sewoods-en.pdf

    https://oc.ca/en/updates-instruments...cies-material/
    Dude the real world bottom line is that you will approximately NEVER have a problem with travelling to or returning from Canada with a personally owned instrument. If you are bringing one here for sale (don’t mention that), or buy one here to take back to US, again, you are very unlikely to have any problem whatsoever. The issues come up with commercial shipping especially in bulk quantities.
    2009 Eastman 505
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    Mandoline or Mandolin: Similar to the lute, but much less artistically valuable....for people who wish to play simple music without much trouble —The Oxford Companion to Music

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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranald View Post
    That's called the luck of the draw. There are so many goods crossing the border that they seem to skim through Customs at times. Don't count on the same luck next time.
    No Ranald, that’s called USMC (very annoying name for a trilateral trade agreement) or in earlier years NAFTA. In regards to your experience “under NAFTA, I was charged a substantial customs duty for importing an instrument from the USA, an antique (1923)”, that instrument would be explicitly exempt, under NAFTA, from duties if it was made in USA or Mexico. (Like if it was a Kimble). Where was it made and did you argue the point? I mean, CBSA will know who Martin or Gibson is, but I doubt they would know from Kimble, Morris et al.
    2009 Eastman 505
    2011 Collings MTO GT
    2008 Toyota Sienna
    2018 Sawchyn mandola

    Mandoline or Mandolin: Similar to the lute, but much less artistically valuable....for people who wish to play simple music without much trouble —The Oxford Companion to Music

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    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Ranald, I've had the same experience as Kirk (post 11) several times. If your instrument was US-made and the paperwork was done right, you shouldn't have been charged any duty. In what year did you make your purchase, and what shipper handled it?

    (I brought an American guitar across 40 years ago under the old rules: no sales tax, but both duty and excise tax were charged in those days.)

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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings here. The problem with shell is NOT with Canada, or any other country for that matter, and there is nothing new about it, it is has been in place for quite a few years now. The problem is entirely with the USA. To import or export any quantity of shell legally, the US resident needs to get an import/export permit before hand, and then fill out and lodge the appropriate wildlife form when the item is shipped. The import/export permit has a fee attached to it, and takes time to be issued. All this stuff takes time and hassle which means increased costs, and the costs, especially the time costs, are not worth it for most small US businesses. That is why Stew Mac, LMI, Andy dePaul etc won't send shell outside of the USA. These rules apply to commercial transactions only - i.e. if money changes hands and one party is running a business. Taking your own personal instrument across the US border is not an issue. US customs do not examine every musical instrument that crosses the border, so you might get away with it by ignoring this problem, but if they do find shell they will confiscate the instrument until the paperwork is completed. Strictly speaking, no paperwork and it is illegal, so if you want to stay legal you need to do the paperwork and pay the fee. Canadian duties and taxes are another completely different issue.
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    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Thank you for that, Peter. I see now my premise in post 9 was wrong. (As was the OP's.)

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    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Cameron View Post
    No Ranald, that’s called USMC (very annoying name for a trilateral trade agreement) or in earlier years NAFTA. In regards to your experience “under NAFTA, I was charged a substantial customs duty for importing an instrument from the USA, an antique (1923)”, that instrument would be explicitly exempt, under NAFTA, from duties if it was made in USA or Mexico. (Like if it was a Kimble). Where was it made and did you argue the point? I mean, CBSA will know who Martin or Gibson is, but I doubt they would know from Kimble, Morris et al.
    Thanks. But all I know is that I imported an American instrument and they charged me duties. As you say, they might not have known that a Vega was American.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    Canada Customs import policy:

    https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/import/p...drttx-eng.html

    How to apply for a refund of duties:

    https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/import/c...-prio-eng.html

    Restricted imports, CITES:

    https://cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php

    Thanks, guys. I brought up duties to let the OP know that restricted materials weren't the only problem that he might have to deal with. As an individual making a rare import rather than a commercial importer, importing, paying duty, and then applying for a refund may be more hassle than it's worth. I've had my banjo-mandolin for more than five years, and though I could dig out my customs slip, at this point I'm not sure that it's worth the bother. The regulations on the websites above are clear as mud. This stood out though: "Any item mailed to Canada may be subject to the Goods and Services Tax (GST) and/or duty. Unless specifically exempted, you must pay the 5% GST on items you import into Canada by mail. The CBSA calculates any duties owing based on the value of the goods in Canadian funds." I can't find anything saying that American goods are exempted. In fact, if I visit the US for 24 hours, I could bring back only $200 worth of goods duty-free. If I visit for 48 hours, I could bring back $800 worth of goods. That means that under our Free Trade system, if I bring home a $2,000 mandolin purchased during an American vacation, I'll be paying duty.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

  26. #21
    Registered User Kirk Higgins's Avatar
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    Default Re: New restrictions on pearl and abalone into Canada

    I also purchased an American made Nash T52 in 2015 from Gryphon Stringed Instruments. The cost of the instrument was $1,800 US. It was shipped to Canada by Gryphon using US Postal Service. The shipping cost was $90 US. I just checked the Canadian Customs form and I paid no duty or excise tax. I paid $9.95 in handling charges and the Canadian federal GST @ 5%. There was no provincial HST charged. Living in NS there should have been provincial HST collected of 10% as well.

    I also purchased an American luthier made ukulele in December 2020. The cost was $1,690 US which included shipping. The uke arrived with no additional charges at all; no duties, taxes or handling charges.

    Under existing agreements (NAFTA, etc.), unless there is a specific tariff on an item resulting from a free trade dispute, there shouldn’t be duty or excise tax for items manufactured in North America and sold in North America. I can see where individuals working on the front lines at our borders may not be aware of all the treaty specifics and incorrectly apply the duties but there are ways to apply for and to have the excess duties returned.

    As Ranald said, it may not be worth the hassle to go through the process but this would depend upon the amount of the purchase.

    I was lucky in my three cases that duties were handled correctly and the sales tax errors were in my favor.
    Last edited by Kirk Higgins; Jan-08-2022 at 7:53am.
    Kirk

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