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Thread: Vintage Gibson A4

  1. #1
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    Default Vintage Gibson A4

    I'm a fairly new mando player but I managed to acquire this lovely instrument. Gibson A4 Serial #25195 - guessing between 1910-1920. Anyone help me get closer?
    Also, I'm considering replacing the tuners. They feel cheap, and are not very precise, or just maybe a little dirty? I dunno. Convince me otherwise.

    Anyway, just wanted to share since she's a beauty (apologies to those who complained in another thread about gendering our instruments. Guess I'm old like that).
    Best,
    Chris
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  2. #2
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    That is an A1, not an A4, and it has been refinished. I hope you didn't pay too much for it.

    The serial number corresponds to a ship date of mid-1914. If you can find the factory order number (usually stamped inside on the neck block), it can help with dating.
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  4. #3
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    The tuners could be original, but that isn't much of an argument for keeping them on this mandolin, since it doesn't have its original bridge, pickguard, nut, fretboard or finish.

    StewMac Golden Age tuners are designed and correctly spaced to replace old Gibson tuners, although other brands might also work.
    https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...tyle-mandolin/

    You might be able to sell the original tuners for $50–75. They used to go for more, but I think the availability of the Golden Ages has somewhat depressed the market value of vintage ones.
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  6. #4
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Question Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    I have 2, now 100 year old A Gibson mandolins they both have the original tuners .
    lots of obsessing over tuners , gear heads?
    service them , a little oil perhaps? consider dry bike chain lube , the vehicle penetrates then evaporates.

    30 years ago I tightened the swaging holding 1 shaft journal to the backing plate , that seemed loose.
    _ swage is like a riveting process_


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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    I sincerely hope you weren't intentionally misinformed about this mandolin's identity. It is not an A-4, and it clearly states A-1 on the label. (It actually says "a-1," which seems odd.) For comparison, here is my 1916 A-4, SN #25366, on the right (my 1916 H-2 mandola is on the left). Note the extra frets on the fingerboard and the fleur-de-lis inlay on the headstock. Also, Martin is quite right to point out the refinish; it looks a bit off, though some of that may be the lighting. The Mandolin Archive would put this serial number as late 1915 - early 1916. The FON would indeed be a better way to plumb the murky depths of Gibson record-keeping.

    That said, if she sounds good, that says a lot. That's always the bottom line, regardless of expense.

    And, welcome to the Café!

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  9. #6
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Steve, 25366 is 1914 according to Spann.
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  10. #7
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    My F4 has old original tuners. I had an A mandolin also.

    First thing - old tuners don't feel like modern ones. You turn in one direction a quarter and nothing happens, then it does!

    Second thing - you can only tune up with these old tuners. Slacken off, then tune to pitch. I swear, once done this way (assuming the strings are installed correctly) the tuning will be stable. Feels like it shouldn't be, but it is.

    Recognise the need for some to have modern feeling tuners on everything. Cool. Stew Mac does some nice drop ins. But replace because you want the modern feel, not because the old ones don't work. They really do. Just take more time

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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Steve, 25366 is 1914 according to Spann.
    I don't doubt it. I don't know whom to believe!

    But if you have 25195 as mid-1914 - Spann, again? - then 25366 should be later ...

    I wonder where the Archive gets its information. I want it to be the be-all-end-all ultimate source, but these discrepancies show up again and again. There really should be just one definitive numbering record accepted by all.

    PS: I bought this through an online auction. They had it listed as 1920s, from hearsay.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Registered User John Rosett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    I have 2, now 100 year old A Gibson mandolins they both have the original tuners .
    lots of obsessing over tuners , gear heads?
    service them , a little oil perhaps? consider dry bike chain lube , the vehicle penetrates then evaporates.
    Tri Flow. Paul Hostetter's tutorial on vintage tuner maintenance: http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html
    I recently did this on my 1919 A2, and now the tuners work like new.
    "it's not in bad taste, if it's funny" - john waters

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  15. #10
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Thanks to everyone for the replies.

    My comments on your comments:

    I don't think I paid *that* much for it: $600 which for me was an even trade for the $600 I had spent on an Eastman MD604 a couple of years earlier. This one just played so much easier. I don't care too much that it has been 'altered', as I think it sounds nice, but then, I've never played a $5000 mandolin so maybe I don't know what I'm missing

    It was born with a pickguard, eh? I play mostly ITM on it, not bluegrass, so I don't have much of a worry about scraping off the finish with wild chording

    I cannot find a Factory Order Number on the neck block

    As far as the tuners, yes, I do know one should always tune 'up' (i.e. slacken the string to well under pitch, then bring it up). It relieves me to know that maybe a little maintenance (lube) might be all it needs. It does hold pitch quite well, so maybe I just have to get used to it.

    I thought the label said 'A4' rather than 'A-1'. I read the dash as the horizontal part of the '4' and the diagonal part of said '4' had faded. TBH, I don't know the difference.

    I knew the bridge was a replacement, and I'm not sure I like it. You may have noticed in my pic that I have a wad of duct tape on the screw on the low end of the bridge. That's because the screw sticks up too far through the wheel (I'm sure I don't know the proper terms for these parts) and it rubs against my hand painfully while I'm playing. I'd love to see what that is supposed to look like. I suspect either the screw itself should be shorter (should it actually be cut and or filed down?), or maybe my playing position is not good form. Again, newbie alert.

    Thanks again for the welcome - I have been lurking for a while. So many experts around and most of the conversation is way out of my league.

    Best,
    Chris

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  17. #11
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Ouch. Bridge posts should definitely not be sticking up through the saddle. The post should be shorter and the hole for the post should not go all the way through the saddle. You can have a luthier replace the whole bridge, or cut down the post and put a plug in the saddle.

    $600 is a fair price for a 1914 A1 with this degree of modification.
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  18. #12
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    You can rest easy and enjoy your mandolin. $600 was a reasonable price for a nicely re-finished A-1. And yes, these are good mandolins for playing tunes.

    The original bridge would have been non-adjustable, either a one-piece bridge, or a slotted base with removeable saddles. If the screw tops on your present bridge are irritating your hand, by all means file them down.

    If you do decide to replace the tuners, the only replacement that will work are the Stew-mac Golden Age "Restoration" tuners, their part number 2505. They are a drop-in replacement, and are the only tuner available that has the correct shaft spacing. Other tuners have a slightly closer shaft spacing, and would bind if installed on your mandolin. I generally try to clean up and lubricate the original tuners-- in most cases I have been able to get them to work well enough for someone to live with them. If I can't get a set working, the restoration tuners are the best solution.

  19. #13
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Quote Originally Posted by RIFyffer View Post
    I thought the label said 'A4' rather than 'A-1'. I read the dash as the horizontal part of the '4' and the diagonal part of said '4' had faded. TBH, I don't know the difference.
    A-4s have a bit more bling and a couple of extra frets on the fretboard. See mine in Post #5 to compare. The woods used may be a bit more spiffy, closer grain and such - I saw a post a few months back (may have been elsewhere online) which specified the woods used for different models. That was news to me; maybe not for the true experts (I am not one). That said, the craftsmanship that went into making these would have been much the same, and the aging of the wood is another key factor in its sound. The effect of original finish vs refinish on a mandolin's sound gets debated now and then. All in all, you did well.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  20. #14
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Congratulations on your new Gibson A-1. Here is a catalog page from the mid-teens that describes your instrument.
    The top would have originally had a golden orange finish and the back and sides a mahogany finish. Stick with the stock tuners, they can usually be cleaned and lubricated to work just fine.

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  22. #15
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    It is possible the screw has backed out of the foot of the bridge and is sticking up too high. If it is seated, it is too long and should be cut off. Either way it should be checked.
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    It is possible the screw has backed out of the foot of the bridge and is sticking up too high. If it is seated, it is too long and should be cut off. Either way it should be checked.
    Looking at the first photo, looks like the other one is sticking out too. Wonder if they are replacement screws or if the saddle is not original to the base?

    Either way, you should have a trained luthier look it over and see what that person suggests.

    Oh, and you got a very nice deal on that A-1. Congrats!
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  26. #17
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    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Some modern bridges have adjustable posts. A couple of mine are adjusted with a small allen key.

  27. #18

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A4

    Congrats RIFyffer! I think you got a very nice deal. I have what I think is an A4, serial 14236. It has the fleur-de-lis inlay on the headstock. I cannot be completely sure of the FON since it is so very faded. I added a Cumberland bridge and new tuners. It sounds amazing. Click image for larger version. 

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