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Thread: Tips for better rhythm playing

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    Default Tips for better rhythm playing

    I'm a lifelong guitar player newish to mandolin. I do a lot of home recording mainly as a means of being able to listen to and critique myself. Probably the biggest dissatisfaction I have with my playing right now is my rhythm playing/chop. It sounds thin and whispy and I want it to be thick and chunky. I play with a guitarist buddy and feel the need to provide a more substantial "wall" for him to solo against. Any tips/techniques/practice exercises/routines, etc. for improving rhythm playing? Thanks in advance.

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    There is one exercise I can recommend to help with a good rhythm feel on mandolin. Just mute your strings by placing your finger or fingers over the strings at any fret, so you are not making a chord, just the mute string sound. Then using your right hand, strum along to any song, any genre, but try to choose a song that has some groove to it. Keep your right hand wrist loose and strum out the rhythm of the song. Don't think about it too much, just feel it. Try it with a bunch of different songs.

    The mandolin is a great rhythm instrument, not just a melodic instrument. If you ever find yourself drumming to a song with your hands and fingers, perhaps drumming with your hands on your thighs or table top, this is the same thing you could be doing with your right hand and pick on the mandolin strings. And concentrate on getting as close and as tight as you can with the recording. Eventually focus on emphasizing the downbeat where appropriate, just like in the song you're playing along with. If you have played guitar for a long time, then most likely rhythm is natural for you. So just lock into it.

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikerofone View Post
    ... the biggest dissatisfaction I have with my playing right now is my rhythm playing/chop. It sounds thin and whispy and I want it to be thick and chunky. I play with a guitarist buddy and feel the need to provide a more substantial "wall" for him to solo against. .
    First, I always suggest practice with a metronome for accurate rhythm.

    Next, what styles of music are you playing? The tight chop is great for Bluegrass, etc., but if you are playing swing, pop or rock, you may want to do a more legato strum. For example, the way a jazz/swing player plays 4-to-the-bar chords is a "thick" and "chunky" backing for a soloist.

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Great suggestion - thanks!

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    First, I always suggest practice with a metronome for accurate rhythm.

    Next, what styles of music are you playing? The tight chop is great for Bluegrass, etc., but if you are playing swing, pop or rock, you may want to do a more legato strum. For example, the way a jazz/swing player plays 4-to-the-bar chords is a "thick" and "chunky" backing for a soloist.[/QUOTE]

    I play a mix of bluegrass fiddle tunes and singer/songwriter material. Bluegrass chop is a bit easier to grasp; but I often struggle to find a good approach to songs that aren't basic boom-chuck style. And yes, from my years of guitar playing/practice I'm a firm disciple of using a metronome.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    A "thick and chunky" chop comes from a combination of right hand and left hand technique. The right hand needs to be whatever the "sweet spot" distance from the bridge is, and the left hand needs to let the strings ring for just a moment. More or less string ring depending upon the situation.
    There is also the mandolin itself. Some mandolin just have a better chop than others.

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikerofone View Post

    I play a mix of bluegrass fiddle tunes and singer/songwriter material. Bluegrass chop is a bit easier to grasp; but I often struggle to find a good approach to songs that aren't basic boom-chuck style.
    good re: metronome!

    The non-BG material might have to be dealt with on a tune-by-tune basis; the other posters on this thread have offered some good advice too.

  12. #8

    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    There is also the mandolin itself. Some mandolin just have a better chop than others.
    Absolutely. I remember when I first sought a BG mndln - after seeing Sam Bush et al in an intimate setting: Went to the local store where the purveyor sang the praise for some black-topped Kentucky - don't recall the model - I was stoked. He proudly chopped some chords. I was completely deflated and understood, immediately, that it was going to take some $ and a search for a suitable instrument with a resonant voice.

  13. #9

    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    It's never too early to start looking for variations on your chop pattern. Good mandolin rhythm should fill out the song, not just cover the two and the four. That covers bluegrass and other styles--but if you are comfortable filling space in bluegrass outside of the traditional chop you will be growing your vocabulary for tunes in other genres.

    And when in doubt, listen to Dawg.

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    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Some odd ideas, pick and choose:

    One tip: right from the beginning, only play tunes that you can dance to. If you can't dance to it, don't play it!
    Metronome for beat at the beginning of the measure, but other regular variations in precision of the timing are of value. Like a hesitation at a particular part in every measure.
    Also, try to think of someone else dancing while you are playing the melody. Think of the riffs of the melody in terms of dance movement and rhythm.
    I don't think you can be an intermediate mandolinist without being able to play in 5/8 and 7/8 time.

    * That is: jig then 2/4, in each measure or jig/reel in each measure respectively.

    Always hit at least one note per measure harder than the rest, maybe more.

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikerofone View Post
    I'm a lifelong guitar player newish to mandolin. I do a lot of home recording mainly as a means of being able to listen to and critique myself. Probably the biggest dissatisfaction I have with my playing right now is my rhythm playing/chop. It sounds thin and whispy and I want it to be thick and chunky. I play with a guitarist buddy and feel the need to provide a more substantial "wall" for him to solo against. Any tips/techniques/practice exercises/routines, etc. for improving rhythm playing? Thanks in advance.
    To me, rhythmically and harmonically, the mandolin in an ensemble comes on top of everything else. If I were to play guitar in a guitar-mandolin duo I would gladly let the mandolin do all the soloing.

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    .
    I don't think you can be an intermediate mandolinist without being able to play in 5/8 and 7/8 time.
    Well, certainly not in the Balkans, Greece, etc.!

    And as much as I love my kalamatianos, zeibekikos, etc. one can be a very creditable mandolinist in many genres only playing 2/4, 3/4, 6/8, 4/4, etc.

    But as for being able to play in odd time signatures, in my world it's a basic technique.

    Besides, all odd times are just various mixtures of 2 and 3.

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    Registered User Jeroen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    I'll share some thick and chunky opinions and see if anyone dares to oppose with good examples.
    -Keep it quiet, dry, simple and sparse. Variations will stand out and have stronger impact. Let the musical ideas of your soloist shine through.
    -A wall to solo against is mutually exclusive with a thick and chunky chop. The sustain of the guitar itself will be more suitable as accompanyment than harmonically and rhythmically saturated mandolin.
    -Accentuate harmonic changes with a simple quiet chord and add modest percussive rhythm.
    -If there is no hard driving banjo that is so loud that the player needs something to keep time, then chopping is not a very musical idea.
    -If you must chop: let the power of the bass in a band, or the power of the bass notes of the guitar dictate the volume of your chop.

  21. #14

    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Sometimes you just gotta practice and experiment with it to see what sounds good. Playing along with Tyler Grant is good for woodshedding and trying stuff out: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...82uibm_45DDYB5

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    While I don't disagree with anything being said here, I think the discussion has limited itself too narrowly. The mandolin can just about do anything, and chopping isn't most of it. Chopping is just one of the thing a mandolin can do. Not even the main one. Because bluegrass isn't the only thing, or even the main thing that mandolins can do.

    I would suggest a better first step is to just listen to all kinds of mandolinning, from all kinds of performers and all kinds of music, and awed by the range of what can be done, before deciding on what you want to do.

    Don't worry the chop will always be there when you get back.

    Check out a favorite of mine - Jez Lowe https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...we-on-mandolin
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Chop tips
    left hand puts down the notes. careful not to squeeze too hard or let your palm cover the neck or let your thumb come up over and around onto the board.
    when the right hand picks through the strings release the pressure from the fretting hand but don't allow your fingers to travel away from the strings. in fact you want to catch the strings in your left hand, stopping(quickly)the sound of the vibrating strings. No buzzes should be tolerated. When you're playing in time you'll fall into a nice relaxed pattern in the left hand of let's say squeeze-release, squeeze-release..
    In bluegrass chopping, there are basically two voicings used, like a G 7-5-2-3 and a D 7-4-5-2. another useful drill is to practice switching between those two voicings and leaving down the fingers common to both. Start with 4 beats each chord, then 2, then 1. Practice left hand only, no pick, just marching back and forth between the two voicings.
    you'll run into players who say 'just play the bottom 3 strings' or even "just the bottom two'. i'm pretty sure my chop heroes are playing all four and even allowing each note to speak, giving the chord a balanced sound. Even. Quick. Clean.
    In the right hand, make sure you're not resting on the bridge or in any other way "muting". Chopping and muting are two different things. When you hit your chop swing the pick through the strings (all four as if they were one big string)by kind of flicking your wrist. Again it must be relaxed. Having the fingers rolled up helps with that.
    There is commonality between the bluegrass chop and swing rhythm--it's the short sound made by operating the left and right hands as described above. Differences are the voicings--the chop sounds quick in part because there isn't a lot of harmonic info in it..usually there's two version of one pitch or another. swing rhythm is all about color tones and movement of voices within the chords, also connecting chord to chord, not staying in one place too long. Another difference between the two styles is what rhythms are played...chop is predominantly offbeats, swing can be downbeats only or combination downbeat-offbeat like long-short, long-short..
    Players in either style will pepper their rhythm parts with rhythms in addition to these fundamental rhythms, like for example a little hiccup sound at the end of one section or measure leading into the next...
    There's not really one "good chop". Listen hard to your chop heroes, in fact transcribe some of the tracks that feel best to you to see what is really going on.
    I'm thinking of about a half dozen players right now whose rhythm playing I admire, respect, and emulate. NO TWO OF THEM DO IT THE SAME WAY.
    As always, keep it fun. That will keep your hands relaxed for one thing. For another, it IS fun!! One of the most fun things about being a mandolin player-controlling the rhythmic feel, locking in with the other cats, driving the bus...

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    What Don said! But please Don, however great your contribution is, give it thinking space by putting it in paragraphs, otherwise people will be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of words.

    What JeffD said!

    A good chop is a wrist thing. Try shaking water from a hand. That’s the way to handle the pick in order to chop.

    When playing with a metronome learn to play the offbeat on the click.

    Listen to early Monroe, 1946. The fat chop has a swing feel.

    There is still more than what has been said here. What has been said so far is quite interesting.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    ...you'll run into players who say 'just play the bottom 3 strings' or even "just the bottom two'...
    While that speaks to the technique of those people in many cases, it is one of the things I use to evaluate mandolins. Does a chop chord sound full and robust or does it sound like a strident slap? To me, the better sounding mandolins sound full with all 4 string pairs involved in the chop. There is a temptation to leave out the higher pitched strings on (usually) inexpensive heavily built mandolins because their sound can be too bright and "noisy". Some people seem to get used to playing that way and transfer the technique to use on better mandolins too.
    Also, better mandolins don't have to be "hit" hard to respond with a full, satisfying chop with all 4 involved.

    (FWIW, that is only a small part of my mandolin evaluation. I just chop a few chords to see how they sound and then move on to the sound of the high notes, the open G, the balance between strings and frets and so forth.)

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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Adding to what David wrote is that learning to play just DUD (jig rhythm) followed by DUDU (reel rhythm) played in one measure, so that would be DUD,DUDU per measure is a great skill to have. It’s a bit like playing the piano where your concentration constantly moves from left to right hands and then separates.

    So that would be 7/8 time and one measure could also be played, DUDU, DUD.

    (Remembering that the great Bluegrass players do play, or at least have learned a lot of the other genres which makes their chops smooth and steady).

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  30. #20

    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    I’ve found Dworsky’s A Rhythmic Vocabulary incredibly valuable. The emphasis is on Latin/Afrocuban, but the general layout, the learning strategies, and the grooves themselves are useful for any musician. On a related front, the “AfroLatin Drum Macine” app is a great practice tool and a real bargain for what you get. Metronomes are always good, but I find practicing over clave more productive for how it demands independence.
    I’ve been working to apply Afrocuban drum parts to mandolin for years now. Anyone else interested in the genre?

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  32. #21

    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfessorO View Post
    I’ve found Dworsky’s A Rhythmic Vocabulary incredibly valuable. The emphasis is on Latin/Afrocuban, but the general layout, the learning strategies, and the grooves themselves are useful for any musician. On a related front, the “AfroLatin Drum Macine” app is a great practice tool and a real bargain for what you get. Metronomes are always good, but I find practicing over clave more productive for how it demands independence.
    I’ve been working to apply Afrocuban drum parts to mandolin for years now. Anyone else interested in the genre?
    I play lots of afro-brazilian forms - everything from chicha to jelly roll Morton, on accordions. I used to be a drummer and played all that on the cans - since hanging it up, accordions (and flamenco guitar) allow me to deploy the most complexity rhythmically, which is my thing.

    My project is arranging professor longhair on piano accordion - of course Byrd was known for his synthesis of these forms.

    For fun I play along with percussion tracks on my kids' electronic keyboard - it's pretty sophisticated with several types of forro styles, cumbias, sons etc. as well as middle eastern styles...

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  34. #22

    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    But of course mandolin is great in the music - choro! Myself I went into banjos from mandolin and got into jelly roll and joplin and all that jazz. I think Dr John used mndln nice on gris gris. Man that's tradition - there' all kinds of ways to learn rhythm.

    https://youtu.be/Xe-TJMmdV84
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jan-12-2022 at 12:11am.

  35. #23
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    OP says he's playing fiddle tunes with a guitarist...is a chop the best way to play rhythm in that situation? I think it is not.

    Mike Compton doesn't chop much in that situation, and neither does John Reischman. They play some open strings, play great time with a great groove, and let it ring.




  36. #24
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    Really interesting second vid, is Mike angry with Chris for what he did?
    A real zig-zag rhythm battle.

    Great example, thanks.

  37. #25

    Default Re: Tips for better rhythm playing

    As the OP of this one I just wanna say thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply with great ideas and suggestions. I've already incorporated many into my practice routine.

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