Help identifying this "Jul. Heinr. Zimmerman" mandolin

[Gigs6027]

Hi there.
I recently stumbled across this (I believe it's a mandolin) while cleaning out an estate.
I'm wondering if anyone may know any information or price related to it.
On the inside is says
Jul. Heinr Zimmerman
Leipzig
5506
St. Petersburg
on the bottom is looks like it's hand written or stamped "1907"

Thanks for any input.

[allenhopkins]

Some info from a violin website:

Julius Heinrich Zimmermann was born in Sternberg 1851. He established his first workshop in Leipzig and after becoming quite famous he successfully estabished branches in Petersburg, Moscow and Riga. Only high-qualified and ambitioned specialist were engaged for his high quality production. Soon Julius Heinrich Zimmermanns instruments became famous for their superior sound...
My browser is refusing to access Wikipedia at present, but I did find another site with some Zimmerman information.

Date seems appropriate for the instrument. Zimmerman was an instrument manufacturer, with a specialty in violin-family instruments, who later branched out into making brasses and winds as well. He appears to have been active in Russia and Latvia, with dealerships and possibly manufacturing there also. As to whether his firm made this instrument, or just sold it in St. Petersburg, I haven't the expertise to offer an opinion.

[Jim Garber]

What kind of wood is on the bowl? Here are two mandolin pages from an earlier 1899 catalog from JH Zimmermann:

[brunello97]

Here is a JH Zimmerman bowl I have in my files with a very Neapolitan / Vinaccian-derived look about it.

Doesn't quite match any of the '99 catalog images but isn't too far removed from them, either.

Do we think Herr Zimmerman made his mandolins or marketed others?

I note the "von Meglio" model on page 2 of Jim's post.
Interestingly, the model shown has a baroque split pediment headstock that we've seen on Ceccherini mandolins..but I don't recall on seeing on Meglios, either De_ or Michele. Maybe there were others?

This one here with the "ahorn" wood bowl.

Mick

[Gigs6027]

Thanks everyone for your input. I was away for a bit which is why I haven't replied with pictures. I'll take some more when I get home. Anyone have an idea as to a starting price I should go with when I sell this?

[brunello97]

The value of this mandolin beyond any sentimental or decorative value is going to be totally dependent on its playability which will be almost entirely dependent on the condition of the neck / neck angle to the bowl of the instrument.

So if you are able to post some more photos that show a range of good side views it would help ascertain the neck's condition.


Those bad cracks on the top will be a drag on the value no matter the neck condition.

There are a lot of old bowlback mandolins still floating around, with a high percentage in mostly unplayable condition or in need of serious repair.

There may be someone out there who finds Zimmerman mandolins highly collectable, but I wouldn't expect this to bring much of a return.

More photos will help...but as our friend, Mike Edgerton, is fond of saying "Mandolins like these fail to sell on a regular basis."

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Some of the value will depend on location. Some bowlbacks will sell for a higher price for instance in Europe vs. North America. However, as Mick says, condition is important. If it needs serious work it may not sell at all. I would guess in playable condition this mandolin in the US might sell for $100-200, but with those cracks I would not even expect that.

[Gigs6027]

[allenhopkins]

Serious top cracks will impair its value. Other than that seems a decent serviceable instrument, rosewood bowl with many staves, enclosed tuners, quite plain ornamentation (simple inlays and binding). Tailpiece has no cover, but I couldn't determine from pics if a cover was missing, or if the tailpiece was designed without one. Also couldn't determine if the neck/body joint had been compromised by too-heavy stringing.

I'd put it at the low end of the above market value estimates. But I'm far from a bowl-back expert.

[brunello97]

Also couldn't determine if the neck/body joint had been compromised by too-heavy stringing.

Often too, Allen, these old bowlback necks go South because of their lightweight construction, even without overweight strings.

CF Martin and Luigi Embergher designed internal strengthening plates and braces to help support the top in the neck block / bowl / soundhole area.

L+H response, I think, was to beef things up entirely. They used sturdier neck material but also the tops were a bit thicker...not that this solved the problem.


Gigs6027...a SIDE view of your mandolin and perhaps a few views looking up and down ALONG the neck would really help ascertain its condition.

As Allen notes, that's going to be the ringer on this instrument one way or the other.

Mick

[vic-victor]

Just noticed this old thread. I have somehow missed it a year ago so will put my five cents in. Zimmerman was a large scale importer. He had also a factory, I believe in Markneukirchen, where he mostly produced his violins (mediocre ones by the reviews of the violinists). He got some mandolins from there, aswell (the ones that do not have the maker's label under Zimmerman's. He also imported Italian ones, many Puglisi instruments found in Russia bear Zimmerman's label over Puglisi's. OP's mandolin is also not made by Zimmerman, it has an Italian label underneath. Can't work out the maker, the address seem to be Strada Dei Do... Resembles Salsedo label a bit, but the address is different. Jim, Mick? Zimmermann was an exclusive Embergher dealer in Russia. My lovely No. 3 has the same large black Zimmerman's label over the original Embergher's, nearly totally obscuring it. Zimmerman also didn't mention the actual makers in his catalogues.