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Thread: Chords and double stops in Trad

  1. #1
    Registered User Ed McGarrigle's Avatar
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    Default Chords and double stops in Trad

    At the ripe old age of 66 I returned to the mandolin for the umpteenth time to learn Irish Trad during the early days of the pandemic. I began with the OAIM web site and for the past year, online live lessons. All very well and good. I feel I’m actually making some progress, practicing daily and just having fun learning about the tunes through The Session, Aidan Crossey’ s The Irish Mandolin web site, the ITMA site etc.
    But,, and I’ll take this up with my teacher but wonder about your take on this: Should I be attending to learning chords and double stops? How does one know where to place them?, that is what are the guidelines as regards their judicious use in the music? On one hand it seems they are completely unnecessary but I feel a little negligent as far as my learning goes if I’m neglecting them
    Just wondering what more experienced players think
    Ed

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    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Two simple Rules of Thumb:

    1. Learn your "biads", your "diads", your "power chords", whatever folks want to call those chords that are just root and fifth – chords that have no thirds in them. The thirds can and will clash with the melodies.

    2. The root and the fifth of the key that the tune is in can be a part of any chord, eg if the tune is in A (major, mixolydian, dorian, minor, whatever) then the A and E open strings can be part of a D chord (so, A-D-A-E), a G chord (so, G-D-A-E), an F chord (C-F-A-E) etc.

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    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Ah, sorry, I didn't address the "Should I?" question.

    Depends on the context. If it's just a whistle, a fiddle, and you, then ya, you're the best rhythm instrument available, so, depending on purist attitudes, your drone-y mandolin chords could be quite welcome.
    Often there are so many instruments that it doesn't matter much.

    There are no rules of thumb for this, it's completely a matter of taste.
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    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    I'd say that it kinda all depends on the guitarist's vibe. No matter how many melody instruments there are, there's pretty much a rule that only one guitarist is allowed (I'm talking sessions here, not rehearsed bands), and the guitarist usually has some degree of canine-like defence of his or her territory. If the guitarist shows appreciation of what you're adding, you're golden. If you can't read the attitude, at least display that canine-like submissive attitude until you figure out where you stand.
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    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    I wouldn't consider them unnecessary. Like ornaments and variations they're a great way to add a bit of colour to a tune. My first tenor banjo teacher had me throwing double stops and two finger chords into tunes she taught me from the get go, so I just did the same then when I transferred them over to the mandolin. As for knowing where to place them I guess I got a feel for where to put them from the tunes my teacher taught me and then applied that to tunes I taught myself. There's no guidelines really - if the chord or double stop sounds good then you've put it in the right place!
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    if the chord or double stop sounds good then you've put it in the right place!
    Very true. The only way to learn, but I hate it when I suddenly discover that the "DO NOT CROSS" line is right there behind me.
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    I play Irish and Scottish trad almost exclusively, on flute, mandolin, and octave mandolin.

    Flute is the most recently learned instrument and I've been moving more of my former mandolin repertoire onto the flute because it offers a wider range of expression with more ornamentation possibilities, more sustain.

    However! I still play some tunes on mandolin because it does something the flute can't do, and that's intersperse double stops, partial chords and full chords here and there within the melody line. It's a way to compensate for the fast note decay of the mandolin, adding harmonic interest at intervals within the tune.

    As to "where to put them," I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, I just do it on instinct and familiarity with the tunes and the chords. It probably helps that I also occasionally back this music on guitar so I have an idea of appropriate chords and modal structure, like knowing if a tune is in D mix then there's going to be a few C chords in there somewhere. Spend enough time playing this music and you'll figure it out.

    One final tip: I highly recommend learning to finger a double stop/"dyad" chord with just the tip of your index finger holding down two adjacent string courses (4 strings total). Not everyone can do that, depending on finger size and string spacing. But it's incredibly useful for throwing in partial harmony here and there, because it frees up your other fingers for adjacent notes in the melody line.

    For example, two partial chords I use a lot are the "modal A" fingered 2200 or AEAE bottom to top, and the "modal E" fingered X220 or EBE without hitting the bottom G string. The lack of a 3rd interval means you can use this for both major and minor tunes and phrases. Of course you can also just use full chord shapes, but at full dance tempos for jigs and reels it can be difficult to get in and out of the chord quickly enough.

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Thanks for the input. I’m working on The Fairies’ hornpipe now and will try a few double stops at the end of a phrase here and there

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    ...

    One final tip: I highly recommend learning to finger a double stop/"dyad" chord with just the tip of your index finger holding down two adjacent string courses (4 strings total). Not everyone can do that, depending on finger size and string spacing. But it's incredibly useful for throwing in partial harmony here and there, because it frees up your other fingers for adjacent notes in the melody line.

    For example, two partial chords I use a lot are the "modal A" fingered 2200 or AEAE bottom to top, and the "modal E" fingered X220 or EBE without hitting the bottom G string. The lack of a 3rd interval means you can use this for both major and minor tunes and phrases. Of course you can also just use full chord shapes, but at full dance tempos for jigs and reels it can be difficult to get in and out of the chord quickly enough.
    I pretty much gave up on making that "one finger" A "chord" on my Lyon and Healy - it has a neck width of 1.21" at the nut. And my fingers are wide enough that I can't get two fingers together close enough to use them for that 2200. So I am now using a backup mandolin (Red Valley flattop oval hole, 1-1/8" nut) for the traditional stuff where the "modal A chord" is handy. Thanks for the tip.
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    i'll also add that, certainly the sessions I play, the music often goes too fast to add anything but pure melody or just chords. I can pop in a double stop here and there, but most of the mandolin people i know jump to chords if they can't play the melody or a run fast enough. OTOH, if you practice a piece with them -- sort of like practicing a piece with triplets as ornaments -- then they just show up when you play. I don't think anybody will give you the stink eye if you play chords, but in the sessions I play in, it's expected that the mandolin is mostly a melody instrument. but it depends on the session. I sat in one session where the mandolin just played chords and seemed surprised that I was playing melody. i found that session (or that player, more correctly) an outlier. ymmv
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    The way I teach them involves getting students to place double stops on notes that are longer; quarter and dotted quarter notes, to begin with.

    As for what note goes with what we do a bit of chord theory and look at the mode we're in and that should determine what the kosher chords are and what notes we can utilise in our double stops. Thirds are completely fine if you have an awareness of what's harmonically going on and/or you have a keen ear for what aesthetically works.

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Always remember that the fifth fret of a string is an octave higher than the open string below. so it's very easy to 'fortify' an A, D or G note, giving that higher note and the mandolin in general a fuller sound by playing both strings.

    Another trick is not to take your finger off a note once you've played it if you don't have to. It is quite often the case that you will need it again soon anyway but in the meantime it might give you a useful chordal effect.

    It helps a lot if :
    a. You know the names of each note on the fretboard.
    b. You have a basic knowledge of chords - ie what notes are in E minor etc.
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Quote Originally Posted by Randi Gormley View Post
    ...in the sessions I play in, it's expected that the mandolin is mostly a melody instrument.
    I wonder how many of the those mando players are renegade fiddlers like me, 'cept they never did get through the chapter on Chords? I'm getting there, just not quite there yet...

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Double stops are only chords with some of the notes missing!

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    Registered User Ed McGarrigle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Just yesterday, in my lesson, started adding a D double stop in “The Hag’s Purse”. It’s funny how little things initially throw me but it’s a nice addition

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Ed, I'm glad you have asked some good questions. And since I'm older by three years, I'll be gentle in my response. Ha, ha.

    First you (and all of these younger folks) need to understand that chords in Traditional Irish Music are not part of the tradition. Only in the last 90 years or so have chords become an aspect of the music.
    Others will challenge that statement, however my point is that it is primarily a solo style played by a bunch of soloists.
    The 'chords' that surface in this polyphonic mess come from occasional extra notes made (and copied by others) by the Irish piper.

    I'm glad that so many others are 'jumping in' and offering suggestions but the basic situation needs to be mentioned.

    As for chords. (As a fiddler/mandolinist, I'm working on Matt Heaton's Irish guitar lessons via youtube coincidentally.) Chords have a huge effect on how a tune sounds. It is the sonic backdrop of a melody, making the sound go this way, or that. And it also involves the rhythm, which is a big deal in dance music. Adding a little extra note here and there is fairly harmless - it's not adding chords. It is making ornaments.

    The 'guidelines and rules' are quite complicated; once you look closely. It is prudent to learn a few tricks now and learn why they work later.

    Work on that technique and learn lots of tunes. That's where the fun is. All the best. Doug


    Quote Originally Posted by Ed McGarrigle View Post
    At the ripe old age of 66 I returned to the mandolin for the umpteenth time to learn Irish Trad during the early days of the pandemic. I began with the OAIM web site and for the past year, online live lessons. All very well and good. I feel I’m actually making some progress, practicing daily and just having fun learning about the tunes through The Session, Aidan Crossey’ s The Irish Mandolin web site, the ITMA site etc.
    But,, and I’ll take this up with my teacher but wonder about your take on this: Should I be attending to learning chords and double stops? How does one know where to place them?, that is what are the guidelines as regards their judicious use in the music? On one hand it seems they are completely unnecessary but I feel a little negligent as far as my learning goes if I’m neglecting them
    Just wondering what more experienced players think
    Ed
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    As a harper, I play "accompaniment" all the time - as Jim points out, it's basically predicated on tonic/dominant tonality, with plenty of figured bass and movement to create harmonic contrapuntalism and variation.

    The modern approach introduces more harmonic possibilities, but I'm much more of a "purist" about trad. I restrict my use of more extensive harmonic polyphony - like the oldsters said about it, "it's about elegant filigree in the upper ranges.." For chord theory, I suggest delving into other forms.

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Ed, I'm glad you have asked some good questions. And since I'm older by three years, I'll be gentle in my response. Ha, ha.

    First you (and all of these younger folks) need to understand that chords in Traditional Irish Music are not part of the tradition. Only in the last 90 years or so have chords become an aspect of the music.
    Others will challenge that statement, however my point is that it is primarily a solo style played by a bunch of soloists.
    The 'chords' that surface in this polyphonic mess come from occasional extra notes made (and copied by others) by the Irish piper.

    I'm glad that so many others are 'jumping in' and offering suggestions but the basic situation needs to be mentioned.

    As for chords. (As a fiddler/mandolinist, I'm working on Matt Heaton's Irish guitar lessons via youtube coincidentally.) Chords have a huge effect on how a tune sounds. It is the sonic backdrop of a melody, making the sound go this way, or that. And it also involves the rhythm, which is a big deal in dance music. Adding a little extra note here and there is fairly harmless - it's not adding chords. It is making ornaments.

    The 'guidelines and rules' are quite complicated; once you look closely. It is prudent to learn a few tricks now and learn why they work later.

    Work on that technique and learn lots of tunes. That's where the fun is. All the best. Doug
    Interesting - everyone I've taken lessons and/or workshops with would refer to "chords" when talking about playing the c natural on the A string and the E on the D string at the same time for example, e. g. saying something beforehand like "You could also throw a chord in there....." (just to clarify: as an ornament, not accompaniment) The rabbit hole of what's "not part of the tradition" in Traditional Irish music can get really crowded because we could also pile mandolins, tenor banjos, the bouzouki, the guitar etc. in there as well.
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    ...not to mention the harp - is it established that O'Carolan didn't accompany his tunes by playing 'chords' by adding non melody notes? I think one can play folk music in any style you want - that's great, but trying to establish what might or might not be 'traditional' is a luxury for academics, one that is IMO a diversion from just playing the music, a rabbit hole as Jill suggests. The piano accordion came into Scottish music in maybe the 1920s, so is that traditional, and if not, what difference does it make? 'Tradition' reinvents itself every so often, just as what was once household or automotive 'junk' to so many of us here is now 'vintage'

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Well, yea. What difference does it make?

    The term 'chord' means different things to different people.
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    ...not to mention the harp - is it established that O'Carolan didn't accompany his tunes by playing 'chords' by adding non melody notes? I think one can play folk music in any style you want - that's great, but trying to establish what might or might not be 'traditional' is a luxury for academics, one that is IMO a diversion from just playing the music, a rabbit hole as Jill suggests. The piano accordion came into Scottish music in maybe the 1920s, so is that traditional, and if not, what difference does it make? 'Tradition' reinvents itself every so often, just as what was once household or automotive 'junk' to so many of us here is now 'vintage'
    Ya O'carolan introduced the baroque tinge and all that. Certainly it's (harmony/'accompaniment) more florid style and apparently a departure from what went before - the natural succession of things.. A contemporary of Carolan's, a Denis Hempson, is representative of "old school": "Though friendly with Turlough Carolan (qv), he (Hempson) never departed from the canon of high tradition in his choice of airs, frowning on the adulteration of style evident in newer compositions." It's the same old story of succession and rebirth - this particular one being a subject of much interest in the Irish harp world. Though there's not much documentation, the field of historic research in early Irish music (much of it wrought through clarsach harp tradition) is a growing field, with schools and programs, institutes, et al. There's a lot of literature available if you're interested.

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    On the recommendation of another member here from another thread I bought the book 'Celtic back-up for all instruments' by Chris Smith (published by Mel Bay). It's not mandolin specific, and you need to read dots to get through it. However it does appear to do a good job of explaining different ways of doing this - harmony / rhythm / melody and combined approaches, and why classical keyboard harmony sometimes just doesn't work for Celtic music. I've encountered that a number of times - harmonies written for folk tunes by highly skilled classical musicians which grate on the ear, often as being far too 'nice', or else they try to force the melody into specific directions it doesn't want to go.

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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Dots on paper, including books, do not give you the immediate and complex information that you get 'by ear'. Children learn to speak without knowing how to read. That's the short answer.

    The long answer involves the insight that even 'highly trained classical musicians' don't do it right according to traditional sensibilities. They are right as far as the logic of music theory goes. But traditional folk music has many idiosyncratic exceptions and habits. Language again is a good example. Could you write down this paragraph with an "Irish accent", or "Southern Drawl"? Of course not. Text is not enough.

    In order to write down an interpretation or description of how a person with an Irish accent would talk is a daunting task. So many little details to cover and variations to consider. None the less, people do write out Irish tunes with the understanding that it is only a basic starting point. And there is a big assumption that the user of the information has experience listening to a lot of the music. And accompanying this music is even harder because there are so many more variables.

    The only sensible approach is to master 'one little thing' and use it wherever it seems to fit.

    And simple things like single notes on a harp, or adding one note on a mandolin, fiddle or banjo to make a 'double stop' can avoid the complexity of 'full chords.'
    Messing with chord inversions, leading tones, thirds and sevenths that change the mode and other distasteful additions; guitar and piano players have the problem of too many choices and often, sadly, don't make the right ones.





    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    On the recommendation of another member here from another thread I bought the book 'Celtic back-up for all instruments' by Chris Smith (published by Mel Bay). It's not mandolin specific, and you need to read dots to get through it. However it does appear to do a good job of explaining different ways of doing this - harmony / rhythm / melody and combined approaches, and why classical keyboard harmony sometimes just doesn't work for Celtic music. I've encountered that a number of times - harmonies written for folk tunes by highly skilled classical musicians which grate on the ear, often as being far too 'nice', or else they try to force the melody into specific directions it doesn't want to go.
    Last edited by DougC; Mar-25-2022 at 12:24pm.
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Yeah, I know a player who learns tunes via the dots and initially struggled to get the tunes to sound like, jigs, reels and hornpipes and it was when he started working on learning tunes by ear that he suddenly turned a corner and got it.
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    Default Re: Chords and double stops in Trad

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Ed, I'm glad you have asked some good questions. And since I'm older by three years, I'll be gentle in my response. Ha, ha.

    First you (and all of these younger folks) need to understand that chords in Traditional Irish Music are not part of the tradition. Only in the last 90 years or so have chords become an aspect of the music.
    Others will challenge that statement, however my point is that it is primarily a solo style played by a bunch of soloists.
    The 'chords' that surface in this polyphonic mess come from occasional extra notes made (and copied by others) by the Irish piper.

    I'm glad that so many others are 'jumping in' and offering suggestions but the basic situation needs to be mentioned.

    As for chords. (As a fiddler/mandolinist, I'm working on Matt Heaton's Irish guitar lessons via youtube coincidentally.) Chords have a huge effect on how a tune sounds. It is the sonic backdrop of a melody, making the sound go this way, or that. And it also involves the rhythm, which is a big deal in dance music. Adding a little extra note here and there is fairly harmless - it's not adding chords. It is making ornaments.

    The 'guidelines and rules' are quite complicated; once you look closely. It is prudent to learn a few tricks now and learn why they work later.

    Work on that technique and learn lots of tunes. That's where the fun is. All the best. Doug
    Hi Doug,
    Of course, you're correct although I think that chordal instruments such as guitars and bouzoukis have been commonplace in Irish trad for at least 50 years, and as such, are part of the evolving tradition - at least that's the way I see it. Equally, to the ultra purist, comparatively "recent" instruments such as the concertina, button accordion or banjo maybe are not part of the tradition. I don't really hold any strong opinions as long as the music is good.

    I went to the album launch (Dog in the Fog) of a fiddle/flute album by the two premier Irish musicians in Manchester, Dezi Donnelly and Mike McGoldrick (as an aside, this was a joint album launch, the other being Angela Usher's banjo recording "The Gort Mile"). Anyhow, just the fiddle and flute with no backing sound wonderful, albeit in these expert hands, and do demonstrate that the melodic form can hold its own with no additional harmonic or rhythmic "backing". The video below is an example of this.

    I can't really add much to the great advice on this thread already, but do find that putting in additional notes is a good way to play to the mandolin's strengths - Dagger Gordon helped me to understand this when I went to a music weekend in Scotland a good few years ago now...

    Last edited by Paul Cowham; Mar-27-2022 at 4:05pm.

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