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Thread: Fret Material / Type Differences

  1. #1

    Default Fret Material / Type Differences

    Been browsing threads and I noticed people talking about refretting with different types of frets.

    EVO, banjo wire, etc.

    I'm unclear about the differences this makes to the instrument. I assume their are benefits, but are their drawbacks to doing this?

    Does banjo wire make fretting easier? Does it impact sound? How is it different from EVO?

    Just trying to gain some understanding of this. I'd appreciate any insight.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by LKN2MYIS View Post
    Been browsing threads and I noticed people talking about refretting with different types of frets.

    EVO, banjo wire, etc.

    I'm unclear about the differences this makes to the instrument. I assume their are benefits, but are their drawbacks to doing this?

    Does banjo wire make fretting easier? Does it impact sound? How is it different from EVO?

    Just trying to gain some understanding of this. I'd appreciate any insight.
    EVO is a material, not a fret type. It has a hardness somewhere between nickel-silver (the "common" fret wire material) and stainless steel (the hardest material). It also has a gold/yellow tinge that may or may not matter to some folks.

    I don't know what "banjo wire" is but I'd guess it's referring to the more narrow, and not-so-tall sizes of fret wire.

    From all I've seen, the main types on mandolin are the more traditional, narrower wire (maybe the "banjo" kind), and then something that is probably in the "medium" range you might have once found on most acoustic guitars. Some folks prefer one or the other, and some don't seem to find it a differentiator.

    The material (choice) is up to the person paying for the work, though there are, arguably, differences in how the instrument may sound or feel, the biggest reason people choose the harder materials is for longevity. (Priced a re-fret lately?)
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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Most fret wire on guitars, banjos and many mandolins is about .080" wide and .035" to .040" tall.
    Nearly all modern banjos have the same fret wire as most guitars.
    To some people, the narrow, tall fret wire that was common to mandolins feels great, but to many others the wider more standard modern fret wire mentioned above feels much better. Not to mention it is not easy for the luthier to find fret wire of a moderately small profile for mandolins, so lots of new mandolins have .080" wide frets just like banjos and guitars.

    As for fret material, I hear no difference. There are those who claim they can hear a difference, but frankly I think they are fooling themselves and I'd be surprised if they could identify fret material in a double blind listening test.

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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    I don't believe that the material frets are made of has a meaningful affect on the sound but the difference in playing feel may be noticeable. Materials like stainless steel are hard to work with but they’ll last longer than any other material. The fret size similarly affects feel much more than sound. Honestly, unless you’re a journeyman player you probably won’t be able to tell one from another by anything but size and appearance.
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    I have Evo on one of my banjos and one of my mandolins. My wife has Evo on one of her guitars. The rest of our fretted instruments use nickel silver frets.

    The problem with A-B sound comparisons is that no two instruments -- even of the same type and build materials -- sound exactly the same anyway, so there's not an easy way to compare fret-material tone between instruments. And comparing pre- and post- re-fret with different fret material is very subjective, even if recordings are involved. Also because setup has to be re-done at re-fret time, it's still like comparing two different instruments.

    When I had my mandolin and my banjo re-fretted to Evo, I specifically had the old strings put back on these instruments in order to get a closer by-ear comparison. But these instruments still had to be setup again as a part of the re-fret, so other changes were involved besides just a change in fret material.

    With my mandolin re-fret, I went from traditional thin wire frets to "banjo-width" frets. I could feel the difference in frets, but there again, we're talking about setup changes, plus we're taking about comparing old rutted frets with brand new frets. There's naturally a big difference in feel there.

    All that said, both my wife and I prefer Evo frets on our main playing instruments because these frets last longer. We did also both express that we thought our instruments sounded a little brighter after re-fretting from nickel-silver to Evo. Knowing the stuff that I described earlier about A-B and pre- and post- comparisons very well because I have been a setup/repair person in the past, I'm skeptical that it's the fret material. But that was our impression at the time.

    This is not necessarily to say that instruments don't sound different after a re-fret... I have also heard other people express the same kind of thing about instrument sound after a re-fret. But again, I'm skeptical that a difference in sound after a re-fret is because of the difference of fret material.

    If anyone can demonstrate a reliable way to prove that, I'm interested.
    Last edited by dhergert; Feb-04-2022 at 2:16am.
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    So if I understand all of this correctly, the primary motivator is longevity, and that any tonal difference is probably unnoticeable?

    When a playing difference is noted, is it safe to assume that some people prefer one over the other and there is no 'technical research' to back that up?

    I appreciate the responses. This stuff is fascinating to me and my ignorance.

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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Longevity for me is extremely important. I tend to wear out the frets on my mandolin quickly so I end up having to get frets dressed a couple times a year and then completely replaced within 2 years. I get tired of having my mandolin on the luthier's bench and I'm forced to own a 2nd mandolin just for these occasions.

    So my current solution is as soon as the frets that come on the instrument need attention, I just have them replaced with Evo Gold. I don't notice any difference in tone. For me the common nickel-silver frets last less than 2 years, whereas the Evo Gold will last me 6 years before needing to get dressed. Oh, and I only replace the first 9 frets that exhibit the most wear. Haha! I don't care if I have mismatched fret color going up the neck.

    I also have 2 guitars with stainless steel frets which I love. I can never wear out the frets. Otherwise I had the same problem with my guitars.

    As for feel, wider frets do feel different than more narrow frets. And tall frets feel different than short frets. You play enough instruments then you figure out what you like best. Personally I don't care so much about that, I just try to get used to whatever the instrument has.
    Last edited by Nashville; Feb-04-2022 at 9:48am. Reason: additional info

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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Probably worth also mentioning... To my feel, Evo and stainless steel frets feel slicker than nickel-silver frets. Maybe that's a function of wear over time with softer nickel-silver, but what it means for my playing is that it's easier to choke the strings (intentionally or accidentally) with Evo and stainless frets. The term self-lubricating comes to mind, although that may or may not be the actual situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LKN2MYIS View Post
    ...This stuff is fascinating to me and my ignorance.
    Oh, and regarding ignorance, keep in mind, unless we've actually been in on the metallurgy involved with Evo or stainless frets, we're also ignorant. All we can do is judge based on our experience with how they work. So don't feel bad, we all start somewhere.
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Longevity (hardness) of frets may decrease longevity of strings - just something to consider. It is the strings that wear divots into the frets, and it is (primarily) the frets that wear out the windings on wound strings and beat up all the strings.
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    Oh, and regarding ignorance, keep in mind, unless we've actually been in on the metallurgy involved with Evo or stainless frets, we're also ignorant. All we can do is judge based on our experience with how they work. So don't feel bad, we all start somewhere.
    I've no problem with not knowing (ignorance). It sometimes leads to learning for me.

    This stuff is just fascinating to me. Inspires me to look at and think of things I previously paid no attention to. And that's why this Forum is so incredibly valuable in so many ways to me.

    Thank you all for your input.

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  19. #11

    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    I swear by stainless steel frets. My main electric has SS , true tempearment frets for 10 years and zero wear and its been played to hell and back.

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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    I decided a long while back that I’d rather continue to use the nickel-silver standard frets than to go with Evo or SS because string longevity is more important to me. Changing strings affects my day to day life more than fret wear. I play a lot, and to the eye, frets appear to wear quickly, but in reality it takes a long time for frets to become an issue even when they may “look” bad due to some divots. If and when the become problematic, leveling and dressing the frets makes them good again, and actual refretting is really not necessary for many years.

    But of course, that’s just my own personal experience, I’m an amateur who plays a lot and gigs only monthly on average.
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    I have taken to simply crowning the worn frets instead of a level. I leave the slightest dimple where the fret is worn. As long as it is not buzzing and I don't lower it it keeps the intonation better than a wide dimple. It's easy and doesn't take down other frets unnecessarily.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Longevity (hardness) of frets may decrease longevity of strings - just something to consider. It is the strings that wear divots into the frets, and it is (primarily) the frets that wear out the windings on wound strings and beat up all the strings.
    That is not the case. My mandolin has strings that are some 10-15 years old - REALLY - they are so old that I can't even remember when they were changed (that's except the e strings that broke during setups years ago, but I used old worn e-strings laying around so they may be almost that old as well). I can consider it an experiment on how long strings can live. :-)
    I refretted the mandolin 5 years ago with the tiny SS wire (and put the old strings back) and they don't seem to wear any faster.
    I don't play too much but I must say I'm one of the lucky guys with no harmful sweat, my strings don't rust or tarnish at all even when I don't wipe them after playing. I just clean them once a month with Fast-Fret or simply with WD-40.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    That is not the case. My mandolin has strings that are some 10-15 years old - REALLY - they are so old that I can't even remember when they were changed (that's except the e strings that broke during setups years ago, but I used old worn e-strings laying around so they may be almost that old as well). I can consider it an experiment on how long strings can live. :-)
    I refretted the mandolin 5 years ago with the tiny SS wire (and put the old strings back) and they don't seem to wear any faster.
    I don't play too much but I must say I'm one of the lucky guys with no harmful sweat, my strings don't rust or tarnish at all even when I don't wipe them after playing. I just clean them once a month with Fast-Fret or simply with WD-40.
    YMMV and I know you are an expert luthier, but for me personally it is the case that fret wire wears against the strings - and elementary physics of friction should bear that out. It can be most noticeable on the wound strings, as the windings will eventually wear through and break over a fret. I normally change my strings before that happens on my mandolins, but often on guitar where string bending occurs, a wound string’s winding will break before I get them changed, of course simple logical conjecture is enough to understand that pressing a taut string against a metal stop will wear the string … and as I’ve said, that has been my experience. YMMV

    As to whether SS or EVO frets would wear strings faster than nickel-silver, I haven’t proven that to myself, I believe it’s logical, and can see no great advantage for me personally to use them, relying on the reasoning I’ve already given. Our opinions differ on this, and though I have great respect and admiration for your reputation as a luthier, I’ve never been one to fear disagreeing with experts or conventional wisdom when reason and experience tell me something contrary to their opinions.
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Well my last post was probably too “defensive” though, what I should have said is, Adrian, you are to be complimented on your light touch playing technique … and, I am amazed at the ability of that set of strings to wear the frets enough to need a re-fret after 10 or so years, while remaining usable, even after five years of use on SS frets and showing no more wear than the previous 10 years on the previous unnamed material. I really wish I could get decades out of my strings. Don gets that longevity with strings as well, IIRC. I simply cannot.
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  28. #17

    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    I think Nashville's post sums up the rationale behind alternative fret materials well. From what I've read over the past decade, the consensus among luthiers is that EVO has a lifespan of roughly 4x that of standard nickel silver. I've put it in 5 mandolins and one flattop, none of which are really showing any wear. Bluegrass mandolinists tend to hit hard with a thick pick for maximum volume (take that you banjo you!) and that wears frets quickly. The old fashioned narrow frets (~0.050" wide) are croaked in short order. 0.080" bead frets are the norm these days on even the best instruments. Stainless steel frets are for life and are popular among some electric players. They are more labor intensive to install and finish and chew up tools at an alarming rate. The people who do install SS add a surcharge for those reasons. The effect of SS frets on tone is a debate. Players of high end, sensitive acoustic guitars claim to hear the difference in tone and do not like it. Electric players, not so much for obvious reasons.

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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Heiden has been using EVO for a long time because he'd rather build than do fret jobs. My Heiden is a 2010 and Will Kimble looked at it at Monroe Camp in 2021 and said the frets need nothing.

    As far as I can tell, the only reason nickel silver frets are still being used is to keep repair people busy doing frets.
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  32. #19

    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Which stainless steel alloy? Temper? Hardness of EVO, its hardness? Etc.
    To anyone who makes stuff, the seemingly complete opacity on this one, simple issue is pretty weird. Wouldn’t be acceptable in other products, and certainly these alloys are not being compounded by fret manufacturers..and considered some kind of hokey trade secret. Looked a bit on the web: no mention. Even nonsense such as “nickel/silver”. Every piece of metal I buy comes with a measured analysis, and I would no more use a piece of ‘stainless’ without knowing the alloy than luthiers would just ask a dealer for ‘some wood’ maybe brown.

    Does it matter. Yes.

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  34. #20

    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Grieser View Post
    Heiden has been using EVO for a long time because he'd rather build than do fret jobs. My Heiden is a 2010 and Will Kimble looked at it at Monroe Camp in 2021 and said the frets need nothing.

    As far as I can tell, the only reason nickel silver frets are still being used is to keep repair people busy doing frets.
    Great testimony Don! I'm guessing you've put a LOT of miles on those frets compared to casual player.

  35. #21

    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Roy View Post
    Stainless steel frets are for life and are popular among some electric players. They are more labor intensive to install and finish and chew up tools at an alarming rate.
    I come from a metal background where SS frets are more or less now the standard, and all the builders for a long time now. I personally had 5 guitars refretted with SS frets over a decade , not counting the ones I ordered with SS frets, and all the builders and techs I talked to said that the chewing up tools is BS if you are using quality tools, and using it as an out for people that don't want to mess with them. Fret jobs can be a big source of income afterall. Now I never done a fret job, nor do i know if their is a difference on the tools that people that work on acoustic guitars/mandolins vs electric guitars use, but from the world I came from this is constantly being repeated as not true. Im sure other builders and experiences are equally different and true though.

  36. #22
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by stinkoman20xx View Post
    ...all the builders and techs I talked to said that the chewing up tools is BS if you are using quality tools...
    I'm afraid I must call BS on them then.
    "Chewing up" is probably an exaggeration, but working with SS frets definitely wears tools faster than working softer materials, and even if the abrasive quality of the harder metal didn't make a noticeable difference, the multiples of extra file strokes makes a difference.
    Making BS claims may be an "out" for some, but for me (and many others) the way to handle the situation is to change extra to cover the extra difficulty, time, frustration, and tool wear, and most likely still make less per hour working on SS frets.

    FWIW, I do not work on electric guitars, and in my experience with SS vs Evo gold fret wire on acoustic instruments, longevity of the frets is yet to be determined. No one has worn out any of either that I have installed (that I know of).

    As an aside, yesterday I re-fretted an older Martin guitar with an unbound Brazilian rosewood 'board using Martin-supplied nickel silver frets. I had forgotten how easy fret jobs used to be!

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  38. #23

    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    In some defense of the "BS-ers" out there...

    I have to say, I don't see mass production moving to the harder materials. It seems to be fairly specific to higher end (e.g., Martin "Modern Deluxe") or individual/small-shop builders. So, clearly the cost is an issue, and I would guess it's not just the cost of the material, but labor and tools.

    A local, well-resprected tech I talked to said he simply doesn't do EVO or SS because of tool wear. Now, he may be old and set in his ways (we went to the same "luthiery" in the 70s, he a year after me!), and maybe he's trying to gin up more work, I don't know, but he's backlogged enough that more work doesn't seem to be something he needs to be actively generating on his own... Anyway, techs are working on frets all the time, not just refretting, and IME the amount of tinkering and filing done on a repair to suit one individual often exceeds what is done on a new build for a customer at some distance. And, a new, handmade mandolin (from my presbyopic view) carries enough margin to keep that shop's tool drawer refreshed a bit more often than your typical "tech's."

    I did want to put EVO on when I just refretted my Eastman, but, as I say *all* the time (another age-related "perk"), like me, my tools are old and dull, so I stuck with NS, and the exact gauge I wanted to put on was not available in EVO, as well.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    As to whether SS or EVO frets would wear strings faster than nickel-silver, I haven’t proven that to myself, I believe it’s logical, and can see no great advantage for me personally to use them, relying on the reasoning I’ve already given. Our opinions differ on this, and though I have great respect and admiration for your reputation as a luthier, I’ve never been one to fear disagreeing with experts or conventional wisdom when reason and experience tell me something contrary to their opinions.
    Sure the strings do wear on frets. On guitars it is more common due to bending od single strings. On mandolins we don't bend the strings (unintentionally) because they are stiffer and doubled.
    I only experienced winding broken through on mandolin D string on light strings. I never managed to wear through d from EJ74 or heavier set.
    The wear depends on friction and I believe well polished SS fret surface will have less friction against the bronze string than nickel silver fret. And the polish on SS will last MUCH longer.
    Generally steel/phosphor bronze is quite good combination for low coefficient of friction. I coldn't locate exact numbers for nickel silver/bronze combo though but I ssuspect it will be higher.

    Regarding the tool life. I didn't ruin my tools yet on SS wire. I can see that I need to squeeze the cutters a bit harder but my nippers are still good (good quality tool) and the cut is generally quite clean. I noticed however that SS blunts (loads) the files and abrasives less than NS. I also measured how long it takes me to do a refret and I don't see defference in SS and NS in this.
    Adrian

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    Default Re: Fret Material / Type Differences

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