Eastman MD305 Tailpiece upgrade

[ukmando]

Hello
I was wondering if anyone has experience of upgrading a tailpiece on an Eastman MD305. Would a different one like a James or other type make a noted difference in tone etc?
Cheers

[Bob Buckingham]

I've up graded a couple of 300 series mandos with Allen tail pieces. There may be some more focus to the tone and a bit more punch with that upgrade.

[dhergert]

A number of other subtle changes can also occur when a tailpiece is changed, so just comparing the tone between pre- and post- upgrade can be difficult. Those subtle changes can include things that change the string approach to the bridge like tailpiece length, string height and string angle as they leave the tailpiece. They can also include harmonic muting (or non-muting). They can also include the weight, material and design of the tailpiece. And they can also include the mounting method(s) involved with the tailpiece. And, since it's sort of impossible to compare tailpieces for tone side by side, a player would be relying on subjective hearing and memory of what the previous tailpiece sounded like.

Two aspects that probably are less subjective to compare are how easy it is to change strings, and also how solid a new tailpiece is after mounting it. A number of tailpieces provide enhanced ease of string changes. And a number of them demonstrate extremely solid profiles compared with other tailpieces.

[Rob Roy]

Since the original is a cast tailpiece, definitely not. The consensus from my reading here over the years is that even replacing a stamped tailpiece with a cast one doesn't affect tone.

[Bob Buckingham]

Since the original is a cast tailpiece, definitely not. The consensus from my reading here over the years is that even replacing a stamped tailpiece with a cast one doesn't affect tone.

I tend to agree to a degree. I heard an old Gibson A before and after the tailpiece was replaced and even the wife of the man who owned the mandolin could tell the difference.

[ukmando]

I've up graded a couple of 300 series mandos with Allen tail pieces. There may be some more focus to the tone and a bit more punch with that upgrade.

Thanks, which Allen tailpiece model did you install, there seems to be quite a few. Cheers

[maxr]

Result may depend on how old your 305 is. More recent ones like mine have a fairly solid cast one like other Eastmans, several here have said older 305s have stamped ones. BTW, after many years of messing with instruments I believe that any change you make to anything connected to the strings on an acoustic stringed instrument has the potential to change the sound, but it doesn't always, and it may not be predictable.

[Eric Platt]

As others have pointed out, it may or may not change the tone. But the main reason to do a change like that is to make string changes easier or because one likes the looks of a different style better.

Like maxr above, I have tinkered with instruments for a while, and while I want to think changing things changes the sound, whether it does or it's just a placebo effect is up for debate. Example - recently changed the stock bridge on my Mid-Missouri flat top to a heavily modified Cumberland Acoustics ebony bridge. I think it changed the tone, but years of being here have realized I only want to think that. It really made no difference.

[maxr]

... years of being here have realized I only want to think that. It really made no difference.

Yeah, but you spend $100 it always sounds better to you afterwards - well OK, it looks better. Or maybe it feels better, but it's $100 better, right?

[J Mangio]

Yeah, but you spend $100 it always sounds better to you afterwards - well OK, it looks better. Or maybe it feels better, but it's $100 better, right?

Well said, pass the popcorn please.

[JEStanek]

If you dampen the strings between the bridge and tailpiece all you're really doing is adding mass to the box.The new TP shouldn't contact the top so it won't change those vibrations. Will the added mass affect the tone? Wide debate. Was the original TP on your Eastman their cast one or stamped (I kinda hate the stamped tailpieces just from a functional perspective.

In order of magnitude of changing how your well set up mandolin will sound different I would go with strings, picks, technique, skill, bridge, tone guard, practice, room acoustics, tailpiece. with diminishing returns on the tailpiece. I can't recall who, but someone experimented by increasing instrument mass by adding lumps of clay on the headstock and reported ever so slight increased sustain. Very subtle. And that was about it.

Here's why I would have a tailpiece changed, the existing one caught on my skin or clothing, I hated it's looks, the stamped tines broke. YMMV, of course. It's your money and we aren't the boss of you.

Jamie

[Bill McCall]

It could change, and maybe not for the better.

Funny how folks here think changes always make an improvement in sound.

[ukmando]

Thanks for all the reply’s. It seems that if I have a few hundred dollars to spare it might be worth experimenting, but it equally might be better putting that money towards an upgrade in mandolin that is pleasing to my ears. Cheers

[maxr]

ukmando - Eastman 305s have a good reputation for tone/$, so if you're not keen on the sound yours makes, I think we have the following choices:

0) Try different picks - cheapest option by far, I found big differences, and I found some I like, and none of them cost more than £10 for 3.

1) Maybe you're looking for a different sound - try a Kentucky? They have a different sound and feel, and there's plenty around In UK. My KM 250 is quite different from my Eastman 305.

2) Is your Eastman well set up? I'm not sure who does a really good mandolin setup in UK - but if you think it's already well set up:

3) Could it just be a 'dog'? Many instrument makers (including A. Stradivari) have turned out the occasional dog that nobody can make work really well, and for no discernable reason. Hand it round your local mandolin guys - If some like it and some don't, it's probably fine. If nobody likes it, there's probably something wrong.

Good luck!

Max

[meow-n-dolin]

I don't see how changing to a James tailpiece would significantly alter the sound. On the other hand, I changed from a stock, cast Eastman tailpiece to an Ashton Bailey style (actually a copy of the A-B), and, using ball-end strings, reduced the string length (and tension) by an average of about 10%.

This definitely changed the tone, though only slightly (and not in a bad way).

Al

[mandroid]

I got a James on a mandolin with a smaller footprint tailpiece, and the holes got plugged & re drilled,
but the new tail piece's larger footprint covered it all up.

Lots of 'Tone improvement' is probably helping you justify the work & expense..
I liked the improvement in string changing ease, & I made an ebony face on the tailpiece cover.

[J.C. Bryant]

For me, if it helps in changing strings that may well be worth the expense and the trouble. Also, for me, most of my sound issues come from me. When I play well the mandolin sounds better and when I don't, well you know . . . .

[maxr]

I finally got round to putting the bronze Allen tailpiece I've had for a month on my 1 year old Kentucky KM250. Unlike the OP's Eastman 305, this is fitted as OEM with about the thinnest stamped steel tailpiece you'd find - you can bend this thing with your fingers. I changed it more for looks, just because I thought the OEM is cheap looking and fairly nasty compared with the rest of the instrument. I kept the same G and D monel pair I had been using, and replaced the not-very-old E and A pairs as they were too much hassle to refit. And...

It sounds better for my purposes, no doubt about it. Lows are fuller, more clear, and better defined (less woolly). Highs are louder, it's louder overall, it sustains longer, and it's got more 'ping'. Hammer ons and pull offs are better It sounds more modern than before - in fact more like my Eastman 305. It's not impossible some might prefer the sound of the OEM tailpiece, because it wasn't bad at all - a bit more hollow and a little more delicate, but also a bit more 'rattly' on misfrets. The new tailpiece has much more mass for its size, and it's a rigid thickish bronze casting rather than a thin piece of stamped steel. Would you notice this in a band sound? Probably not. Do I notice it? Very much so. Was it worth it? Of course, I spent good money on this

[Richard500]

@Maxr. Useful observations; I’m considering the ‘shorter total string length, lower tension’ theory as perhaps more plausible than added mass, so good data point. Perhaps, violin traditional tech using a rather long tailpiece actually evolved, and not just to save string!
Anyway, noting your address, and searching another thread about the Endurance discovery, a mandolin and a banjo, I found the Falmouth Maritime Museam to not only have information on the subject, but looks to be an excellent place to visit, especially if you have, or can borrow some small kids.

[maxr]

Richard - I think the Maritime Museum in Falmouth is excellent, well worth a visit. I think they may now have single day passes - at one time it was only a whole year ticket, which is great if you live there, not so great (expensive) if you're visiting. The Seal Sanctuary at Gweek (10-12 miles West) is also well worth a visit

I'm not at all sure the tailpiece swap I did would change the average string length - because the OEM one had the usual odd pressed steel combination of direct connection to hooks on the lower strings and 90 degree turn hooks before the loop fastening on the higher strings. The replacement has loop end posts which form an inverted V.

I've changed tailpieces on a number of different instruments, mostly bowed, and tailpiece material, mass, and fixing details (for strings and tail cord on fiddles) appear to be the significant factors re. tone for me. Custom violin family tailpiece makers like Bois D'Harmonie do also take into account vibrating and overall string length, if I remember correctly.

[mandroid]

Variation on my prior post ...

IMHO thinking it improved the tone after spending the money & taking the effort to change the tailpiece,
might be akin to the Placebo Effect.

Yet, I see, so many posting this FAQ seek the answer, yes, before doing it..

After seeing a few E hooks broken off cast Eastman tailpieces, shown online.
Should be a reasonable justification to fit a different tail piece, a pragmatic motivation,

whether the tone is improved , or not.

[maxr]

I can now say, Mandroid, without fear of contradiction, and on the basis of not very rigorous experiments numbering less than ten, that changing the tailpiece MIGHT improve the sound. I've had this work on a number of fiddles, not work on a lesser number, and now it works on this mandolin. The essential component of success has been that the original tailpiece is nothing special and the replacement is much better quality, so maybe it's not surprising that for me, it works more often than not. I've reused the strings whenever possible to remove that element, and I'm fairly sure Pavlov was not involved - show me a bowl of dog food, though, and I'm anybody's.

[mandroid]

I would take a high quality recording before and then another one as good after ,
to have a chance to actually compare them

I'd have new strings on both, at recording time ,
since replacing old strings and the tailpiece, at the same time,
the difference may as much be the new strings as the tailpiece..

<Science>

[Eric Platt]

I would take a high quality recording before and then another one as good after ,
to have a chance to actually compare them

I'd have new strings on both, at recording time ,
since replacing old strings and the tailpiece, at the same time,
the difference may as much be the new strings as the tailpiece..

<Science>

Doesn't one then need a control instrument to make sure? As I've said before, have come to realize nothing really makes a difference. Maybe even including f vs oval hole and flat vs arched top. It's all mandolin in the end, really.

[maxr]

..have come to realize nothing really makes a difference. Maybe even including f vs oval hole and flat vs arched top. It's all mandolin in the end, really.

That's not my experience at all - just this morning, my son played the mandolin I recently fitted an Allen tailpiece to, it was also much loude, more solid, and more 'pluncky' than last time he did so a few days ago. Also, IMO there's no point in trying to be scientific about messing with instrument strings or hardware, because in the end, who are you doing this for? Answer - you . If you think a change makes a difference that's an improvement, you'll probably be happier with that and play better anyway. I'm convinced you can sometimes create what sounds like a much more expensive instrument by messing with it - just ask the members here who have done a proper setup on some (not all) very inexpensive instruments.