Standard notation for Mandola

[J.C. Bryant]

Do all you great "dola" people used the "alto clef" for mandola or do you use the treble clef with a lower than writen sound?

[tmsweeney]

I have enough of a challenge trying to read bass clef, let a lone alto (don't you love those classical pieces that weave in and out of bass and tenor clef), so I prefer to adapt the treble clef as needed to the instrument, it makes it easier to find sheet music but doesn't help much with classical scores.

[EdHanrahan]

Not 'dola myself but, in the local mandolin orchestra, it's common to use transposed music so they "think" they're playing mandolin. We have had (rare) folks that read alto clef but, generally, we are mere mortals.

[DavidKOS]

If I'm playing standard "classical" scores, I'll read alto clef.

If I'm on the related tenor banjo, treble clef.

Otherwise, whatever!

[J.C. Bryant]

A question or DavidkOS, why the distinction between banjo and mandola. Aren't they tuned the same? I'm sure the question reveals how little I know. Thanks

[Joe Bartl]

I have lately started into tenor guitar, tenor banjo, and tenor "lute" -- all of which are tuned CGDA in the same range as mandola. Having begun mandolin life as a classical student/player, I depend on printed music. I am chagrined to find that most contemporary printed music for these tenor instruments uses a treble clef in which what would normally be middle C (5th fret on the G string of mandolin or tenor instrument) actually represents the open C string, the lowest note on the tenor instrument. (This results in lots of ledger lines when you are playing the A string.) This lowest note is actually the C below middle C. As a consequence, all of my mandolin established neural pathways for sight/left hand coordination have to be set aside and new pathways in my slow-to-learn and slow-to-adapt brain learned. If the treble clef for tenor instruments maintained middle C where it should be (using lots of ledger lines below rather than above the clef), the long and painful process of establishing new pathways would be needed only for the C string. I would even prefer using the alto clef because it would relieve the confusion of mislabeled notes on the treble clef. However, I know that I can complain about this until I'm chartreuse in the face and nothing will change. I do so here only to get it off my chest.

[margora]

"As a consequence, all of my mandolin established neural pathways for sight/left hand coordination have to be set aside and new pathways in my slow-to-learn and slow-to-adapt brain learned. If the treble clef for tenor instruments maintained middle C where it should be (using lots of ledger lines below rather than above the clef), the long and painful process of establishing new pathways would be needed only for the C string. "

Several comments on this thread and Joe's posting in particular:

--for original music written for mandola in C (CGDA, tuned like the viola) before WW2, it is extremely UNCOMMON to use the alto clef. I know of only one published instance on the American side (Stellario Cambria's 1914 "Trio", written for the Plectrio, a group of which he was a member, and available for download on Nakano or Neil Gladd's website) and 1-2 on the Italian side (Salvatore Falbo's quartet, on the Nakano site). However, there was a modest tradition of playing string quartets -- the so-called "Classic" quartet of M1, M2, MDL in C, MC) and most players in these read from the original bowed parts (so alto clef for the mandola player).

--instead, the music was written either "transposed" -- so that a mandolinist could play the notes as if the mandola were a mandolin -- or in so-called "universal notation", which is 8vb treble clef for the mandola in C, sounding one octave below where written.

--Joe Bartl's comment points out a fundamental flaw with universal notation. Its adherents believe that any mandolinist could pick up a mandola in C and immediately play a score in universal notation AND the notes would have the correct pitch classes -- a written C would sound as a C, just not in the right octave. However, this is NOT true in practice, as Joe points out. This may explain why, for many years after the American Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists, and Guitarists adopted universal notation as "official" (ca. 1910), printed parts in transposed notation for mandola were still widely available for purchase.

--although the mandola in C was not widely used in Europe, it was somewhat popular in Austria. Mid-20th century, Vinzenz Hladky was the major figure in Vienna. He was trained as orchestral musician, yet when he wrote and arranged for mandola in C, he wrote in actual treble clef, so middle C is precisely where Joe Bartl wants it to be. This does require, as Joe points out, that one learn to read the notes properly on the C string, but this is not difficult. Hladky did the same for the liuto/mandoloncello (different from the notation that Calace adopted). Hladky's two volumes of etudes for the mandola in C (which he called the "Alt-mandoline" or Mandola contralto) are still in print and readily available.

--for contemporary music, the choice of clef is really entirely up to the composer and/or the ensemble that is playing the piece, because it is a trivial matter using modern notation software to change the clef.

Bottom line: anyone who wishes to develop maximum skills on the mandola in C (i.e. become a really useful player to many different ensembles) will learn to read alto clef, universal notation, transposed notation, and actual treble clef on the instrument. Sorry about that (but as Sinatra would say, "that's life").

[margora]

Addendum on Hladky -- he wrote for liuto/mandocello in 8vb treble, like Calace, but used 8vb treble for the C string, as one would on the guitar. Calace wrote notes on the C string generally in bass clef.

[JeffD]

I went and bought some viola beginners books and learned alto clef. I thought it would make me more useful . Well my opportunities to play in mandolin orchestras and classical ensembles have been as mandolin 2. But I still dabble in alto clef to keep my chops up, such as they are.

Some speed bump was flattened in my head, because after awhile, (not a short while) it ceased to be very difficult. I have conservatory trained friends that can easily read a piece up or down any interval, and so never need someone to transpose it for them. I am not there yet, but it does not seem like an inaccessible goal. For me, once I understand what I need to do, it is just practice, just a matter of hours and/or days and/or years. But at some point, "it" occurs.

I do better with practice materials designed to exercise specific concepts, rather than general exercises. So for example I work on third position a lot, using a violin book of etudes designed specifically to strengthen third position reading. In the past I have greatly under appreciated how instructional materials designed for specific goals are so much better than general exercises, tunes, or coming up with something to practice on my own.

[DavidKOS]

A question or DavidkOS, why the distinction between banjo and mandola. Aren't they tuned the same? I'm sure the question reveals how little I know. Thanks

Mandola (CGDA) and standard tenor banjo (CGDA) certainly share a tuning.

But 4 string banjos can be tuned GDAE, DGBE, CGBD, etc.

"why the distinction between banjo and mandola. " I've played musical shows on tenor banjo and mandolin...never on mandola. It was a practical distinction.

[mrmando]

Our orchestra is fortunate to have an entire mandola section who reads alto, so that is what we provide ... but if we had someone who preferred a different system, we'd make sure to transpose parts for them.

It certainly would help if publishers bit the bullet and provided parts for dola and cello in all of the common configurations. We played a Munier piece recently, and none of the mandola players made much progress on learning their part until I transcribed it to alto.

[margora]

"It certainly would help if publishers bit the bullet and provided parts for dola and cello in all of the common configurations. We played a Munier piece recently, and none of the mandola players made much progress on learning their part until I transcribed it to alto."

During his unfortunately short life Munier never wrote a single note for the mandola in C, which is hardly surprising since the instrument scarcely existed in Italy when he was alive. All of his music was written for the mandola in G, a.k.a. octave mandolin, as was the case for the vast majority of mandolin ensemble music written in Italy in the early 20th century. Indeed, outside the US to this day, the mandola in C is an extremely uncommon instrument; the mandola in widespread use in Europe and elsewhere (I am speaking of mandolin orchestras) is the octave. The mandocello is somewhat more common (e.g. Japan) but not much. The commercial market today in the US for mandolin orchestra music is so tiny to begin with that it makes little or no economic sense to issue parts in all the so-called "common formats" to cater to groups with specific needs, unless the composer does the work. Not going to happen with something in the public domain, such as Munier.

While, in theory, it is possible to play anything written for the octave mandola on the C version of the instrument, the reverse is not true. As it happens, Munier was, however, commonly played in the US in the early 20th century, using the mandola in C BUT reading from the original parts (and transposing notes up or omitting if these are too low to play on the mandola in C). As I remarked earlier, while proponents of universal notation were wrong in claiming that it was trivial for a mandolinist to pick up a mandola in C and read such notation straight away, it is really not hard to learn to do so -- the skill was widespread in the US during the Golden Age (if not universal, no pun intended). Of course, it only makes sense to invest in this skill if the orchestra in question does this with some frequency and, even so, from a music point of view it is almost always better to use the instrument for which the music was written in the first place than the substitute at hand.

[margora]

Correction: I meant to write that, in theory, it is possible to play anything written for the mandola in C on the octave, because the range of the octave encompasses that of the mandola in C. The reverse is not true, because the range of the octave extends below that of the mandola in C. That said, if one is playing bowed string parts originally for viola, these will lie up the neck of the octave and will be more idiomatic to play on the mandola in C. In short, the proper tool varies with the job.

[Jim Garber]

When I played mandola in the NY Mandolin Orchestra all the scores were in alto clef. When I switched over from the firsts I spent the better part of the summer training my self to read the alto clef. So I messed myself on the treble. I know there are violinist can double on viola and can easily make the transition to different clefs including treble clef in upper reaches of some viola parts.

These days I stick to playing mandolin parts. In any case it is maddening the non-standardness of notations in various situations. Oh well...

[mrmando]

During his unfortunately short life Munier never wrote a single note for the mandola in C...

Which is no reason at all that a publisher of a modern edition couldn't include parts transcribed for alto clef readers. In an era when basset horn and serpent parts are covered by clarinets and trombones, and you can find a saxophone quartet playing arrangements of Bach keyboard pieces if you're into that sort of thing, the leap from G mandola to C mandola is not so profound that it shouldn't be attempted.

At least three of the mandola players in my group are capable of doubling on octave mandolin if necessary — and indeed in our repertoire there's also a Kioulaphides piece that quite demands the use of one. But if transcription makes the part accessible to our entire section without subtracting notes — and prevents us having to bring two axes to rehearsal — we're gonna transcribe it. If that makes Munier to spin in his grave, so be it.

[J.C. Bryant]

So I will make another effort to read alto clef.
But, if I try to use treble clef (even though the sound is an octove lower than the note) I should use pieces that have no notes lower than the C below middle C, right?

[urobouros]

I could sight read as a kid but but that muscle atrophied years ago Thus far, I've been able to find the songs I want to play in tenor banjo tab (with care to select proper tuning of course ), though I suspect I may have to work that out again.

[JeffD]

So I will make another effort to read alto clef.

Here is my take. Of all the things one can do with one's time, learning to read alto is among the least ridiculous.

You will never, ever, ever, say: "Well, that was a total waste of my time."