Kentucky Army-Navy Mandolin

[Slack_Key]

Two questions. Has anyone played the Kentucky Army-Navy Mandolin?

https://www.sagamusic.com/shop/mando...cial-mandolin/

I realize the KM-150s is the gold standard for the next step up from most mandolin shaped objects, but was curious about the brand and the claim to have a nice woody sound to it. Thanks in advance!

Second question: There seems to be a pretty wide range of advertised prices for new Saga mandolins lately. What is the going price for a new KM-150? Perhaps some of the merchants are including set up, Banjo Ben Clark for instance vs Amazon. Again thanks for any insight you may have.

[A-board]

Though I utilize Amazon services, I would not be inclined to purchase a mandolin there unless convinced it was coming from a partner merchant known to provide quality setup.

That said, I have nothing in response to your 2 questions. Good luck in your quest.

[Slack_Key]

Thank you A-board.

[Eric Platt]

There have been a couple threads on this forum about that model, and it was not encouraging. All plywood and not well set up from the factory. And when setup not great sound.

Not sure on the KM-150, you are probably on the right track about setup. FWIW one Finnish player I know has been using a KM-150 on his band video recordings and I respect his judgement of instruments. You'd be better off getting one of those instead, IMO

[Jeff Mando]

With a little luck, a genuine 100-year old Gibson Army-Navy can still be found for $500 or so.....

[Slack_Key]

Eric: Thanks for the insight and thanks for the link to the Finnish folk group. Enjoyed listening to them.

[Slack_Key]

Jeff: I would be afraid to play a 100 year old Gibson for fear of destroying history. Is there anything unique to the Army-Navy sound, assuming it is well made? I assume it tracks with other mandolins with an oval sound hole.

[Slack_Key]

Looked through some of the Army-Navy threads...does not seem hopeful. Thanks again.

[mandolinstew]

Take a look at the Gold Tone GM 10

[Van-van]

<Removed by Moderator. Please limit commerce to the Classifieds>

[MikeEdgerton]

Check out these threads.

[Slack_Key]

Thank you for the links! I was impressed by Fatt Dad's imagery of the pancake mandolin sound . . . "a piercing echo across a foggy lake". I might take a look at the Gold Tone GM-10. Thanks again!

[Slack_Key]

Thank you Mandolinstew! The GM 10 seems to be an elusive find on the internet. One website says Gold Tone discontinued the GM-10, another says it is a product known to the State of California to cause cancer.....

https://www.banjoteacher.com/banjos-...lin-gm-10.html

https://www.altomusic.com/gold-tone-...ild_index=1611

I guess you just have to take your chances in life. Thanks for the information! I will keep an eye out for the gold tone or save up for a flat iron.

[allenhopkins]

Fans of the International House of Pancake Mandolins, often seek out Flatiron instruments from the 1980's-90's. You can find 1N's listed in the $600 and up range.

I have a "giant" Flatiron "pancake," a 3K "bouzouki" or octave mandolin, that's given me 40+ years of good service. Also a Gibson "A-N Custom" from the '80's that Steve Carlson, original Flatiron guy, signed -- a very fancy "pancake."

I'd jump up from the Kentucky. Several good contemporary builders making "Army-Navy" style mandolins.

[Slack_Key]

Thank you Sir! The description of the KM-120 as having a "woody" sound was what caught my eye. I am mostly interested by old fiddle, Irish and mountain tunes, or at least making noise that sounds something like an old fiddle, Irish or mountain tune. On a different track, if you adjust the tuning and have equally well made instruments, if you capo a bouzouki, does it give you a mandolin-like sound? Thanks in advance!

[allenhopkins]

Well, capo-ing a "zouk" at the 12th fret might give a "mandolin-like sound"; I've never tried it. What we non-Mediterranean types call a "bouzouki" is generally an eight-stringed, four-course instrument with a long scale (maybe 24 inches, give or take), tune GDAE an octave lower than a mandolin. What Greeks and other eastern Mediterranean musicians -- who really invented the bouzouki -- use is a six- or eight-stringed instrument, with double-string courses, tuned in fourths and thirds more closely allied to guitar tuning than mandolin fifths tuning.

The Flatiron "bouzouki," which I usually call an "octave mandolin," was a growth-hormone expansion of Flatiron's "pancake" mandolins. Flatiron went on to build mandolas and octave mandolins along the same general principles as their 1980's mandolins. These, like the Kentucky you're asking about, were based on the Gibson Army-Navy and Alright models that were made around World War I, and were Gibson's extreme budget line -- no carving, little ornamentation or binding, made to be sold perhaps to soldiers and sailors, who'd value an inexpensive instrument to put in a wall locker, maybe take overseas.

What surprised many of us about the Flatiron "pancakes" when they came out 40 years ago or so, was how good they sounded, given their very no-frills construction and affordable prices. I've never played an original Gibson Army-Navy, but, working in a Celtic band in the mid-1980's, I was impressed by the "Irish bouzouki" sound of several British Isles bands, and wanted an octave mandolin. The Flatiron 3K ("K" for koa wood) was just what was needed, and I've played mine ever since.

So no hesitation about recommending Flatiron "pancakes." They aren't made any more, but show up regularly used, at dealers and on auction sites. Unlike the Kentucky, they're all solid woods, have good tuners, pretty durable finishes, and all the ones I've heard sound good. They have a shorter scale than other mandolin models, and it's hard to find hardshell cases for them; most were sold with lined chipboard cases, not too protective.

Redline Mandolins makes a Traveler model that's very like the Flatiron "pancakes," listing at $950. As I mentioned above, used Flatirons seem to be listing for $600-800 at present. All of these are many times more expensive than the Kentucky, but I think you'll find they're much better mandolins as well.

One caveat: when Gibson operated a shop in the Opryland complex near Nashville, they made and sold some terrible "pancake" mandolins labeled "Gibson," to tourists and theme park visitors. Should been ashamed to put their name on them, but "Gibson" and "shame" aren't always closely related. You're not likely to find one of these, but beware; people can be fooled by the label into thinking they're quality instruments.

[robw95]

I'd take a look at a Sawchyn Beavertail. Very well made mandolin at a very affordable price, I love mine.

Rob

[Slack_Key]

Rob, The Sawchyn Beavertail is a great looking instrument. And the entry level instrument seems reasonable, not currently in the budget, but reasonable if it is the sort of instrument I am thinking it is....akin to a KM-500 or 600 series perhaps? Thanks for pointing it out!

[Slack_Key]

Allen: Thank you Sir! I appreciate the information and feedback. Thank you also for all the information you have passed on to the community over the years. I have read many of your posts and found them all to be helpful and insightful.

[Slack_Key]

Allen: I currently have a Rover 25s and a Rover 35s, (along with a few other lower end instruments (banjo, guitar, bass) that I also do not play well). I realize the next step will be at least a 500 dollar plus instrument (KM-150-ish series). And if I am willing to do that, I might as well skip a step and move into the 1K range. Mrs. Slack Key will have to see significant improvement in my playing skills to justify that.

[robw95]

Rob, The Sawchyn Beavertail is a great looking instrument. And the entry level instrument seems reasonable, not currently in the budget, but reasonable if it is the sort of instrument I am thinking it is....akin to a KM-500 or 600 series perhaps? Thanks for pointing it out!

No, my bad, I thought that you were looking for a flattop (Army/Navy, pancake, etc.). The KM-500 and 600 are carved tops with F holes, different animals from something like the flattop, oval hole Beavertail.

Rob

[Slack_Key]

Rob: No I was looking at the flat-top, but was curious about the quality of the instrument. An apples to apples comparison, if you will. I am sure the beavertail flat top would blow away most, if not all, of the overseas model flat tops. I was just curious where you see and compare the beavertail to some of the more familiar models of mandolins. That may not be easy, perhaps comparing a flat top to an arch is apples and oranges. I do like the fact that I could also go mandola or bouzouki. Thanks again for the insight! Have a great night.

[mandolinstew]

My local music store has the Gold Tone but I never played it.
Next time there I will.
The store has a lot of Eastmans.
I have a Kentucky 606 and love it.

[robw95]

Rob: No I was looking at the flat-top, but was curious about the quality of the instrument. An apples to apples comparison, if you will. I am sure the beavertail flat top would blow away most, if not all, of the overseas model flat tops. I was just curious where you see and compare the beavertail to some of the more familiar models of mandolins. That may not be easy, perhaps comparing a flat top to an arch is apples and oranges. I do like the fact that I could also go mandola or bouzouki. Thanks again for the insight! Have a great night.

I understand. My first mandolin was an Eastman 505, which is a slight upgrade from Eastman 305 which is one of the de facto recommendations for a great place for la beginner to start. I had intended to get the 305 but caught a good deal on the 505 so went that way but would have been happy with the 305. That level of mandolin is not just a good place to start but can take you a long ways on your mando journey. Another instrument that gets mentioned here often for those just starting out is the Kentucky 150, in fact Elderly bundles everything together in a starter package along with a pro setup (setup is key to anything that you buy). A carved A or F model is a more versatile instrument in that it gives you more of a presence if you plan on playing bluegrass or with others. A flattop can play with others but it is not a bluegrass machine, doesn't really do the bluegrass chop. Personally, I only play at home and I do Irish, fiddle tunes, Klezmer, and old time stuff and for me, playing along to backing tracks on my computer or online lessons, and for that it does fine. If you decide that you want a flattop I would also recommend looking at Big Muddy mandolins, very affordable and very well regarded here on the cafe.

Don't know anything about mandola or bouzouki but not sure that you should start there. My feeling is that they are interesting side roads off of the main mandolin highway but that most people here start and stay on the main road.

If you want the most versatility get a carved A with F holes, either the Eastman 305 or the Kentucky 150.

Good luck! Rob

[allenhopkins]

Allen: Thank you Sir! I appreciate the information and feedback. Thank you also for all the information you have passed on to the community over the years. I have read many of your posts and found them all to be helpful and insightful.

(Blushes...)