Learning to Play the Mandolin

[Uncle Brad]

I’ve been trying to learn the mandolin for two non-consecutive years now. I’ve completed home study courses from Mike Marshall, Chris Thile, Steve Kaufman, Brad Laird (Improv), Niles Hokkanen (pentatonic), and mandolessons.com...all excellent courses. I’ve studied YouTube videos including Wayne’s World and a couple others...all excellent. I’ve watched many bluegrass groups on YouTube and watched and listened to their techniques. I’ve watched the Floyd Country Store Live Stream and played along where possible...mostly chop chords and a small bit of improv. I’ve had a number of Zoom lessons from two different instructors (one individual and one group)...average success. I’m using a decent mandolin with quality strings and pick that together produce a pleasing mandolin sound. I’m fairly good with music that has the notes. I may not play 100 MPH, but I can memorize the music and play it decently. I’m lousy with improvisation. I have an Associate’s Degree in music so I know theory. Feeling like playing with a group would benefit my learning, I started this group: www.svbluejam.com. They are good people and the jam is fun in that respect. The only music with notes in it is what I bring to the table. All other music from other members is just the chords.

After all this, I just can’t seem to get it together toward becoming a mandolin player and I am loosing interest. Has anyone else had this problem?

[Uncle Brad]

I forgot to mention why I started down the mandolin path in the first place. I've played guitar on the praise team at church since 2014. Mostly strumming chords with a bass run here and there. One day out of the clear blue our worship leader sent me a text saying I should learn to play the mandolin. Well I was rather excited about his comment and I had all the usual thoughts like "it must be a sign," "my ship has come in," etc. Now, I'm not so sure it's meant for me, but just something he wanted.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Good question!

My answer: No, I haven't had that problem. For me, making music is recreation. I have no illusions of pro-dom. So I stick with what's (and who's) fun and deep-six the rest.

My question: If your heart's not in it, why do it?

[allenhopkins]

...I’m fairly good with music that has the notes. ...I am losing interest...

Deducing from what you say, that even in a jam situation, you feel you need to work from sheet music with the mandolin part written out for you to follow.

This is difficult, because it limits your freedom to improvise, react to other musicians' playing, and even just make eye contact and feel part of a group. You say that you can "memorize the music and play it decently." Have you considered putting away the musical score, and just playing one of your memorized tunes in a group jam situation? Or trying to learn a tune "by ear," with no written music or tablature to guide you?

Seems that you've put in a helluva lot of effort to learn in a more "formal" fashion, and still find it unsatisfying. You might find that loosening up, free-wheeling a bit, would open up some potential possibilities.

And, from all you write, you already have become a mandolin player -- just one who's a bit unhappy and dissatisfied with the way he's playing, and the context in which he's playing. Apparently you have all the basic skills. Perhaps you need to emulate Gracie Slick (Jefferson Airplane) in White Rabbit, and "free your head" a little.

Jus' another guy's 2¢.

[Sue Rieter]

I'm a "senior" newbie who's been playing less than two years and never played guitar before. What Allen says, I have heard repeatedly, even if phrased differently. One has to train one's ear and one's brain. If you depend on paper, you'll be dependent on paper. If you're in an orchestra, where everyone's reading music from paper, that's one thing, but if you want to be involved in something less formal, that's another thing.

I'm reading Josh Turknett's The Laws of Brainjo:The Art & Science of Molding a Musical Mind. A worthwhile read about how you have to mold the correct neural patterns into your brain (with suggestions on how to do it). I'm taking Matt Flinner's Old Time 101 class right now, and really trying to learn what he's teaching by ear. I will be working on it well after the class is over with, which is okay, because it's fun. I also strongly feel it's the right way to go.

BTW, I do know how to read music, but recently have made the decision, for now, to limit my use of it. And I have a stack of music books that will be resting on their laurels for the time being.

[Beanzy]

Cut the dots down to just two bar starter- reminder hints. For each song & tune.
Use them when you practice & when you get stuck have a few runs at the buffer.
If you can't get past there then that's the next bit to get right before you consider that tune as learnt.

A few tunes played like that and you'll be comfortable in playing them without looking at the hint pages.
Once you're comfortable that the tunes are pretty bomb proof for playing out, then practice changing them, without reference to any theory or sheets,
just change them and see what's musical to your ear. Do lots and see where they lead you in your practice. If you don't like what you hear, play the tune straight again, then try something else. Keep what you like, even write yourself a reminder, or better still record the idea on your phone for later.

Practice playing those ideas too, sometimes invented/ sometimes straight tune.
Then like when you were learning how to take the straight tune to a jam, start taking the inventions too.
If you fluff an idea 1/2 way through, just switch rails to the straight tune for a bit until you settle down again & can chuck in another idea on the next time you solo.
Don't neglect the chord progressions, once they're solid you have a good safety net even if all the other wheels fly off the wagon.

Two years is still early days for relaxing into jams so don't sweat the time put in so far.
It's a long old journey & there actually isn't an end point if you're always open to learning.

Relax & enjoy the progression from page to painting your own ideas in the air.

[Randi Gormley]

for general malaise, some days I just don't feel like playing much. Some days I don't feel like reading much (and I own something like 6,000 books, so reading is a thing I do). Some days just feel blah. That happens. If you're just having a fit of the blahs, then it'll probably pass.

The real question is how permanent your current unsettledness is. If it doesn't pass, if it just gets worse, what then?

If it sticks around, maybe now's the time for some navel gazing. Your worship leader suggested you try mandolin and you were excited, you got prepped, learned the basics, took everybody's suggestions including playing with others. And now you feel stale, or somehow disenchanted. So ... think about your expectations. What did you hope would be the outcome? In a general sense, what was your goal? I mean, we all joke about stuff like 'i became a mandolinist because that's how you get chicks' 'I gig out and earn tens of dollars!' but the bottom line is we had expectations that we either met, overcame or bailed on. So you ought to look at your expectations. Was mandolin supposed to supply something lacking, either musically or in your life? Was mandolin the means to an end, whatever that end was? consider your motivations with the same critical eye. what was the expected outcome? And be honest with yourself. Is this what i still want?

A lot of us play mandolin because we like to. We like the instrument. Sometimes when I'm playing, i'll glance down at my fingers and think how cool it is that the spider movement of my fingers on this bit of wood makes music. (i feel the same way about typing. I just like the physical act of typing and I like that just thinking something allows me to put it down pretty nearly immediately because i can touch type. Way cool). That's me. Others play mandolin for the things it brings -- companionship, the ability to influence people with music -- to make them smile or cry or feel sad or happy -- performance, with its accolades and moments of terror. The thing is, you need to think about why you play music and why you play mandolin. And if it's not getting you what you want, then see if you can leverage the time you put into it to change your expectations or modify your goal if what you have invested is worth it to you.

And if mandolin turns out not to be the end of the game, well, be honest about that too. If it doesn't bring a positive aspect to your life, it may be time to rethink.

[Jim Garber]

As others a have noted, playing and learning by yourself is fine up to a point, but, in my humble estimation, music is communication and community with other people. Sage advice from others above. I would also suggest getting together with one or two other musicians and working on playing with each other. Jams are fun but only up to a point. Ben after playing mandolin and fiddle for class to 50 years I have been getting together with two of my cohorts and each of us brings a tune or two and we work on playing them together. To me that is the essence of music. We are not a band per se but we do make music.

[JeffD]

It takes between 9 and 11 years to sound like you have been playing for a decade. No real way around it.

I would take every opportunity to play the mandolin regularly with others. The key being regularly.

[HonketyHank]

It's been seven years since I started mandolin at age 68 and I still consider myself a beginner. I have learned a lot and I have had a great time. I think the reason is that I have a clear idea of what I do and do not aspire to achieve; of those things I aspire to, I include only things that are realistic. And while I work on achieving certain goals, I make sure to put them aside frequently to play some tunes that I enjoy playing (even if they come out rather slow compared to the pros).

There are several of us folks in the Newbies social group who are "superannuated", learning just for fun. And we do have young folks too who might well have a different set of goals compared to us "Oldies". But we do try to support each other and discuss what we are doing or having problems with. Come join us! We don't have all the answers but at least we can say "Yeah, I have that problem too."

[Louise NM]

68 is superannuated???

[HonketyHank]

It wasn't back then. But right now I feel positively senectitudinous. I feel like I have put on about 10 years in the last 23 months. I need a road trip. How far is it to Carter's Vintage?

[Bob Gnann]

Good advice all around with these responses. I'll add just another thought (or two).
When the pandemic hit two years ago I determined I would take this time of shutdown to really work on my fiddle playing. I developed a daily routine and it has helped tremendously to advance my playing. About one hour a day of structured practice in front of the music stand reading from notation. I love learning new tunes and working out some tunes I haven't even heard before. Great for your brain and your mechanics. That translates nicely to mandolin also.
And I have also have developed this habit of just picking up an instrument, usually a mandolin or guitar, and just playing! Usually in the evening, but it can happen anytime. Last night I just sat and played my 1960's Gibson LG-O guitar for over an hour. No structure or routine. The night before it was my Capek A-5 mandolin. New strings for the first time in ages made it really sound purrty.
My point being this: sometimes you get the most satisfaction from just plain old playing your instrument. You've got the best seat in the house, just your ears and your instrument. Don't forget why we call it playing music. Because playing, by definition, should be enjoyable!

[Sue Rieter]

It wasn't back then. But right now I feel positively senectitudinous. I feel like I have put on about 10 years in the last 23 months. I need a road trip. How far is it to Carter's Vintage?

That's a 35 cent word at least

[EdHanrahan]

Maybe you need a moderate challenge that leaves you feeling a sense of accomplishment?

Try taking some not-super-difficult (for you) guitar passage that you really enjoy and translate it to mandolin. No writing out, no staff, no tab, just your head & fingers. It will probably require visualizing the chord & scale shapes, imposing a degree of familiarity that you won't find on a sheet of paper. And for passages that maybe don't translate so well, just make up something that fits the scheme - nobody will care that Tony Rice or Keith Richards (your choice!) didn't play it that way. The result can be pretty gratifying.

Example: Early on, I worked out a version of The Eagles' "Witchy Woman" for solo mandolin, combining chords, riffs, runs. I still pull it out on occasion, especially throwing the classical folks (mandolin orchestra) who, ahem, are largely tied to their sheet music.

[Uncle Brad]

Many thanks to everyone who replied to my post. I can confidently say that the root of my problem has been revealed by all your comments. Yes, I’m a sheet music kind of guy. All my musical life I’ve used sheet music; it just seems natural. When I started trying to play the mandolin on the praise team I immediately discovered there are no parts for mandolin. Certainly not in the hymnal, but also contemporary music. I guess that’s when I thought I had to write my own parts, but as all of you made clear to me I do NOT have to write out parts. I was so deep into sheet music that I couldn’t see the forest for the trees. Only from all your comments that I became aware of the different paradigm for mandolin playing, particularly for bluegrass music. This will not necessarily make it easy for me as I have to learn how to do it, but at least it’s been made clear to me that’s the way it is. Some specific comments to each of your replies follow.

Charlie B. Your question/comment: “If your heart's not in it, why do it?” This hit hard; a reality check for me. My immediate gut feeling was you’re right and I was ready to bail. As time passed and with other replies I became aware of the way I was approaching the mandolin was incorrect from a bluegrass jam perspective. I regained consciousness and now I’m ready to apply myself.

Allen H. You’re reading me like a book. That’s me, Mr. formal and doing things by the book (“I’m not one to venture too far outside of regulation” as I say). I’ve always been sort of a stuffed shirt all throughout my U.S. Navy career and following. If I’m playing clarinet in a chamber music ensemble, then sheet music is the name of the game. But equally as you say, I still need to interface and “react to other musicians' playing, and even just make eye contact and feel as part of a group.” This is solid advice.

Sue R. Yes as I mentioned in my opening statement, I’ve depended on paper for all these years. It’s time for a change! Concerning Matt Flinner's Old Time 101 class, I’m signing up for his next semester. I participated in his recent Friday night Facebook jam and tried the whole hour doing improv. I have a long way to go, but this looks good! With no open mic involved on my end I can sound horrible as I learn how to do it, but no one knows or cares!! Thank you for steering me in that direction.

Beanzy. Your suggestions are great. In fact, from my comment to Sue’s note above, I did what you suggested for the songs and only looked at the sheet music to make sure I was on track. However, I could hear/feel the 1-4-5 chord transitions so that mostly kept me going without needing to see notes. Now if I could just relax and enjoy the journey!!

Randi G. To your comments, yes I became disenchanted. I know exactly what my goal and expectation were, and that was to play mandolin on the praise team. I’ve been playing guitar on the praise team since 2014 but realized I was mostly doubling our worship leader for what he did. I starting using the capo and played different shapes up the neck so it at least sounded different. I eventually became disenchanted with that and decided to pick up a different instrument and part – the mandolin. It added another dimension to the group and I received compliments about the different sound.

Jim G. One other member of our jam has asked me to get together with him to do just what you said. He’s been playing somewhat professionally since the 60s. In fact, he has held gospel jams several times at his house with a subset of the members of my bluegrass jam group. I will pursue that smaller and close knit group more aggressively to help me grow as you suggested.

Jeff D. You are correct that I cannot expect proficiency overnight. The jam I have established locally is every two weeks. As time passes more opportunities may develop such as the gospel jam mentioned above.

HonketyHank. I joined your newbie group and I’m looking forward to getting involved. Thanks for making me aware of the group.

Bob G. What a wonderful perspective. I recently learned "Swallowtail Jig" on the mandolin just for my “own” enjoyment and it is pleasing. I’m also trying to learn it on the tin whistle so I can put together a recording with me playing the guitar, mandolin and tin whistle...just for my own enjoyment. I’m also arranging "Traumerei" for baritone ukulele from a guitar part. It is teaching me how to handle octaves when transposing music from six string to four string (among other things).

Ed H. Yes I could use a smaller challenge to help gain confidence. I like your suggestion and will start down that path. I have in mind some simple songs from the hymnal. Nothing put in writing as you say, but 100% working it out on my own on the mandolin. This actually fit very nicely for music specials at church.

Again thanks to all for your expert advice!!!

[EdHanrahan]

I hereby nomiate Uncle Brad for "The Most Thoughtful Response on the Internet" award!

[Tom Haywood]

You mentioned that there are no mandolin parts in the praise music you play, so you have used your knowledge of theory to add some parts. I'm not very familiar with praise music, but I am familiar with the problem of there being very few mandolin parts in some styles of music. I think Merle Haggard has a mandolin in only one of his recordings. Trying to add a mandolin part to his songs during the country music jams always leaves me dissatisfied with the result. I can't imagine getting much mandolin knowledge from that. Due to the current popularity of "bluegrass" instruments, I suspect there are a few praise bands that use mandolins. YouTube is your friend here. Search for those bands, see how they are using the mandolin voice, then slow down the videos to half speed and see if you can recreate a few of the notes they are playing. Observe where they play in the "score", then try throwing it in during your rehearsal. It will start to show up for you.

You may also be attracted to Fiddle Tunes, because they are lessons in themselves. You can use the notation or tablature to learn initially, then observe that the figures in several measures repeat throughout the tune. Get a couple of fiddle tunes that you like, work them out by memorizing the repetitive figures, and play them regularly with someone else. Very slowly at first.

[CES]

I’ve headed up our youth praise band for several years now (though we’ve only played a couple of times since Rona hit), and say to just keep at it. You’ll figure out how to work the mandolin into the mix. If you have female singers (or guys who have higher voices) you’ll pretty rapidly expand your up the neck chord vocabulary, lol, just by transposing on all those “guitar capo 4-7” songs.

Rend Collective, Jars of Clay, and Chris Tomlin come to mind as having some mandolin in their recordings. Check out My Lighthose by Rend. You’ll be able to figure out pretty close to what they’re doing with your ears and by watching the mandolin player’s hands in the video, then just play with it until you get something that works that you can play along with the recording. (That song also has a nice fingerpicked lead guitar part, and, iirc, it’s 4 chords and a cloud of dust).

Also, don’t be afraid to take a couple days off here and there or just wail on your guitar instead. Sometimes when I’m getting in a rut or frustrated leaving it alone for a day or 2 or playing one of my other instruments really helps me when I come back refreshed to whatever was so frustrating. Good luck! With your theory background you’ve got a great head start! And, I’ll agree with those advising you to play with others. I always come away from it motivated, be it at church or in my very beginner level bass playing friend’s basement…

[JohnW63]

Brad,

I just took up the mandolin and I don't really play it, yet. I know maybe four chords. But... I go to YouTube and just type the words " Backing Track " and pick something not fast paced rock and try to improvise over it. In that respect, I'm coming from the opposite end of the scale than you are. From my reading of your post, I'll take a stab at some observations. I saw them because as a guitar player maybe 4 years ago, I was were you are.

1) You're mostly a guitar strummer and need the chords or music to play along well, until you have it memorized. The idea of leaving that beaten path and thinking up stuff on the spot is not something you are comfortable with. If you add some decent ability with finger picking songs with the chords, that was me to a tee.

2) You have enough music background in music theory, we could talk about scales and chord progressions and say 1, 4, 5 song structure or even II, V, I turn arounds and not loose eachother, right? The big step is being comfortable and getting practice doing it without the paper telling you when and where, I think.

3) You could spend years and years being a guitar player with good rhythm chops, and many players do exactly that. No reason to not do that, if you keep enjoying what you do. But, it sounds like you feel that your guitar playing isn't adding much to the group in your worship playing, right? If so, that is great for two reasons. One, you can hear and understand that is the case. Reaching for a capo to change your tone is perfect and it shows you want to not be redundant. Two, that desire to sound different got you interested enough to try a new fretted instrument. Me to ! ( OK, I never played in front of people before I changed things about 3 years ago, so worship playing would have been really scary )

4) What is throwing you about the mandolin is that it is not very often a chord instrument. It draws heavily from single note runs and even solos, improvised or memorized. So, it's a new instrument it wants to take you to areas that are outside your comfort zone from your background.

Did I get these 4 things about right? I hope so. Here is what I would suggest, if you can make the jump. This is from my new 3 years or more of taking guitar instructions from a mostly Jazz bass player. Break away from the chord centric mind set and start with scales. In guitar, the first ones are the 5 note pentatonics. Learn those pattern shapes and move them up and down the neck. There are only 5 patterns on the guitar. I suspect something like that is the same on the mandolin. I used to think it was going to require knowing a LOT patterns that I could never memorize. Figuring that wasn't the case was an eye opener. Once you have a few shapes, either the minor or major scale ones, find some nice slow songs in the keys you have under your fingers and just listen to them and try to mimic the riffs using only that scale. What you will learn is how those scales sound and your fingers will gain muscle memory about where the sounds come from in the pattern. The cool thing about pentatonic scales is that there is no wrong notes. If the song is in Am and you play any note in the Am pentatonic scale it sounds right. After some time getting the shapes down and hearing them, you can start to add little riffs to the backing track, then that builds to longer bits, until you can just goof around with the scale and pretend you are soloing. Eventually you are soloing and it's all improve. It doesn't have to be good or fast at the start, it just has to be sounds you think , at that moment, sound good to your ears.

A good backing track style to start with is B.B. King or " The thrill is gone " style. Maybe just "slow blues". It's slow. B.B. doesn't shred. He just has lots of feeling. It's really 4 chord stuff.

This is the path I was led down. I wish I could get more practice in front of others, but we've had no recitals in 2 years, for obvious reasons. IN that respect, you're better off than I am.

[A 4]

Uncle Paul, a couple thoughts. It sounds like you are well along on your journey, just not happy where you are. Maybe we can step back a bit, and think about your goals.

Dependence on sheet music: it sounds like you want to get past this, and I encourage it. It is more fun to play with people who are not using sheet music, so you can see their faces and have more fun. And if you are heading toward bluegrass, that is not a sheet music style. Suggestions to work on this: If your homelife is suitable (no animals or children who will destroy your mandolin), leave your mando out somewhere you pass by, to be tempted to pick it and play for a couple of minutes. Not long enough to be worth getting out sheet music and sitting down, but just play a couple of phrases for fun. Second, reward yourself for not using sheet music! If the weather is good, grab your mando and and pleasant beverage, and sit outside and play, even if only long enough to finish a cup of coffee. Leave the sheet music behind so it won't blow all over the place, and enjoy being outside. Finally, maybe you have to work on not using sheet music as a specific skill - try it phrase by phrase, just like learning a tune. And it doesn't mean you have to give it up completely, as it is a great tool for learning tunes. And accept that maybe your learning of new tunes will slow down. If it takes you 200 repetitions to get a tune down, you can't learn a new tune in a day, and that is OK.

Improvisation: OK, but at this point you are playing using sheet music, so that seems like a "run before you can walk" approach. Eliminate the dependence on sheet music first.

One last suggestion: I don't play bluegrass, but I do play a lot of fiddle tunes with people. Maybe those are a way to ease into the process? It does not have the demands of improvisation, but it can be "loose" for lack of a better term. Meaning people play as a group trying to sound good together, but it is fun, nobody worries if someone messes up a little bit, and it can be as technically challenging as you want. And they are plenty fun to play alone, like you learned with the Swallowtail Jig.

[pelone]

I play for an audience of one-me. When I do play at jams I chop on the 2 and 4 and sing harmony. I have also adopted the B.B. King method ....play the instrument and don't sing or sing but don't play the instrument. As really late starters new to mando we may have to give in to "just OK" and count our fortunate decision to learn mando at all.