Kentucky Vs LOAR

[Slack_Key]

First: Thank you to everyone from my last thread. I learned a lot about mandolins in general from you and it helped shape my thoughts on that "next mandolin". To Sue's point, it can be frustrating to practice on a lower quality mandolin and not understand why it does not sound like you think it should. I started on a rogue and it was set up as well as it could be. I got frustrated pretty quickly since my Mandolin Sensei at the time was a straight bluegrass guy. It seems Bluegrass requires a pretty good instrument to replicate what goes on for the mandolin.

With that said, while I do like bluegrass, I am interested in the mandolin for old timey, fiddle and Irish tunes. I doubt I will ever have to compete with a banjo to hear myself play in my own living room, but from our last discussion I think an arch is better than a flat top.

For that reason, the Loar 110 seems like an nice instrument. Solid wood and hand carved. I understand it is quiet though. The other option of course is the Kentucky KM-150. Also solid wood and hand carved and well respected by most here at the café. So 4 questions: 1) Loar 110 vs the Kentucky 150, is it a hands down win for the KM-150 even with the price difference? 2) is the KM-250 series just an upgrade in looks vs the KM-150? 3) does Gold-tone even make the conversation for an equivalent model? 4) If I want to spend between 500 and 600 hundred, are there domestic makers who will match or best the KM-150? I also realize around the 600 range you start to see the baseline Eastman. I am only interested in the "A" style by the way.

As always, thank you for your time and consideration, your experience and insight is priceless to those of us who are just getting started.

[Zach Wilson]

The Loar lm110 does have a solid, hand carved top but does not have solid woods for the back and sides but only sports ply woods. So for that reason the Kentucky wound be a far superior choice. However, for 500 to 600 dollars you could land an Eastman 304/305 or go a step up in the Kentucky models to a 250, 256, 270 or 276 with set ups. Happy hunting!

[CES]

The only domestic builder I can think of offhand that can get you a solid/carved A-style/f holed mandolin approaching 600 is Howard “Sonny” Morris, but you’d have to stalk the classifieds with patience (or get lucky with a want ad) for a used one. His prices are amazing for the quality but new are out of budget. His flat tops are at or very close to your budget, but, like Flation 1N, Northfield Calhoun, Big Muddy, etc, they’re not built to be bluegrass axes. I certainly played some bluegrass on my 1N alone in my living room, but even my Kentucky 675-S from back in the day was better suited to BG jamming than the 1N.

I personally would get a KM-150 or Eastman 305 well set up from a Cafe sponsor and run with it. I’ve owned a 315 that was a good one but the victim of a downsizing move a few years ago. Had it been my only mandolin I would have been content, but my Kelly A5 and Rigel CT-110 made the cut instead (as they’re both better sounding domestically made mandolins). The 1N and Kentucky were victims of that move as well. I’ve played a couple of very poorly set up Loar 110s at Guitar Center, and, even accounting for the setups (or lack thereof) they were very underwhelming in tone and felt more cheaply made than Eastman and Kentucky. There are some Loar fans on here who would disagree with me, but they’re also playing mandolins higher up the Loar food chain or those made before they shifted up their business model a couple of years ago (to the detriment of their quality, IMO).

Best of luck! This is a fun little obsession!!

[Slack_Key]

Zack: Thank you for the input! I did not realize the 110 was not solid construction. I have two Rovers that are solid tops and I do enjoy them, but can see where all solid makes a difference. I found a few Café threads about the difference between the KM 150 series and the KM 250 series. Seems the 250 series uses more select wood, but the post 2012 KM-150 is nothing to sneeze at. Thanks again and hope this finds you and yours well!

[Slack_Key]

Chuck: Thanks for the information. I figured a domestic maker would push me into a higher price category and would be worth it to support the them and what they do. I am just not ready to make that sort of commitment to that level of instrument. I have my own luthier, so I am not worried about set up. He is learning from a master so I try to throw as much business to him as I can. It sounds like a post 2012 KM-150 is the best bang for the buck. Maybe a KM-250 series or an Eastman if there is room in the budget. It sounds like the KM-150/250 and the Eastman 300-ish are all about the same with some extra quality in the KM-250 and Eastman, but would have to bump up to the $1K range to hear a difference.

I am sorry to hear about your down-sizing. I have down sized a few times my self, but different instruments and nothing of that quality. Please let me know when you are down-sizing again and I will follow you around with a checkbook.

[Dave Greenspoon]

The Eastman offers lifetime warranty to the original owner. Kentucky still doesn't. IME the Loar 700 is a competitive instrument in its dollar class. Otherwise, I found the Loar line underwhelming. A KY 150 or 250 will certainly get you going. An Eastman 305 will keep you running longer before you experience the innate limitations of the instrument.

[maxr]

Do try both Eastman and Kentucky mandolins in your price range, as they can feel different. My impression is the Kentucky neck is slightly fuller and the fingerboard is very slightly wider. I like both my KM250 and Eastman 305s, but my feeling as a mandolin beginner is that with the Kentucky, I hear what's there, with the Eastman I think there's sounds in there I haven't got to yet.

[keith.rogers]

I would stick with either a Kentucky or Eastman in that price range. Look in the Classifieds here or at one of the sponsors to make sure you get something that's been correctly set up (vs. a "big box" store, at least IMHO).

Slightly related, since you're interested in old-time(y) and Irish, including oval-hole models might widen your options. Kentucky's version (e.g. KM272) of those also appears to have the longer (15th fret joint) neck of the f-hole style, while Eastman sticks with the traditional 12th fret joint.

[JeffD]

You might consider Big Muddy flat top mandolins. Especially since you include old time and traditional music. A flat top does not sound bluegrassy, but it can sound great. I have a Big Muddy M-11 that I have fallen in love with.

Also flat tops are affordable. Because the market favors arch tops for bluegrassers. This means flatties are a great value, often better construction and better wood than similarly priced options.

I have no affiliation or financial interest - just feeling bad for all the wonderful flat top mandolins that are achievable options that could be your forever mandolin, but for the fashion of arch tops.

[Slack_Key]

Dave/Max/Keith/Jeff: Thanks again! It seems that I can not go wrong with an Eastman or a KM 150 or above. I am still curious about the F vs oval holes. And of course, Jeff's point about flat tops are also very valid regarding quality. My Luthier tells the story (unverified) that Martin built a guitar using scrapes of pallet wood to prove the build is more important than the materials used. But as many here have pointed out a mandolin is not a guitar and it is harder to build a good mandolin. I wonder if the flat top design has less pitfalls when it comes to creating a good mandolin.

Finally to the Café in general, I am curious about your thoughts on Arch-top F holes, Arch Top Oval and flat top regarding sound. They say, if I close my eyes, I will not be able to hear the difference between an F-Style and an A-style mandolin...although some have said there is and has to be because of the different shape and its impact on acoustics. If you close your eyes, all things being equal in quality, what differences are you going to hear in these options? Which is better for Irish and fiddle tunes? Thanks as always!!!!

[Slack_Key]

Jeff/Keith: You both make good points. Oval holes and flat tops can certainly deliver...at least they seem to on video. And frankly I like a wider neck anyway. Can you hear a difference in the Arch-top vs the flat top. Is it comparing apples and oranges? Thanks again!

[Slack_Key]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE1DmcPGwaY

And I still can't decide...MAS is real...

[Mandoplumb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE1DmcPGwaY

And I still can't decide...MAS is real...

You will be buying mandolins for the rest of your life. Buy the one that speaks to you, start practicing and looking for your next mandolin. Just remember you ain't supposed to sell them, just buy more. Lol

[maxr]

. Just remember you ain't supposed to sell them, just buy more. Lol

Slack Key may or may not already be initiated into the rules of the MIF or Musical Instrument Fund. This is an important principle of domestic economy for any musician, and it goes like this:

1) When you buy musical stuff, you're introducing musical capital to the fund.
2) What goes in stays in.
3) If you sell musical stuff, the only permissible use for that money is to buy more musical stuff. If you're not firm on that, it'll waste away on beans and toilet roll, and no music will come of it. Trucks for hauling musical stuff are outwith the Fund.
4) All musical stuff is strictly necessary, unless YOU decide it isn't - but remember 3) above and always have a Plan in mind, i.e. the next instrument.
5) Management of the Fund is down to you and you alone, although others (including significant others) may comment, advise, yell, get moody, blackmail, or beg. Statesmanlike diplomacy through to low cunning may be exercised to preserve the Fund.
6) Bagpipes, banjolins, accordions and electric stuff might have special rules negotiated with those proximate, relating to conditions of use. Of course, you won't hear them talking anyway when you're playing these.

Max

[allenhopkins]

Lemme add a bit to Max's rubric above: if you ever reach the point where you are making money playing mandolin -- or any instrument -- all of that money, every penny, can and should be used to purchase more musical instruments, and related equipment. Doesn't matter if you're behind on the rent, the kids don't have shoes this year, and you owe the IRS a bundle.

I stuck to this rule religiously, running my MIF up into the high five figures for awhile; I bought vintage instruments, indulged my dreams of owning rarities by the Larsons et. al., filled my basement with instrument cases -- mandolins, banjos, guitars, concertinas, ukes, Autoharps, you name it. I bought sound equipment of various types, underwrote my participation in regional festivals, and always rationalized that I had a "hobby-slash-second job" that not only paid for itself, but generated a decent surplus.

Reality has nudged me in retirement -- e.g., 50% of the cost of my latest car came out of my "music money," and there are unanticipated expenses (do you have any idea what dental implants cost?) that I funded the same way. But I stick to the basic principle, and the $65 I'll make playing for seniors tomorrow goes right into my MIF. Hell, the house and cars are paid off, the kids both make more money than I ever did, and I'm basically current with the IRS. So, what new stuff's Bernunzio got in this month?

[maxr]

Lemme add a bit to Max's rubric above: if you ever reach the point where you are making money playing mandolin -- or any instrument --

I've heard it said some do, but I assumed it was just bar talk

[Slack_Key]

All: Thank you for the advice on the MIF! It may be awhile before anyone wants to pay me to play...paying me not to play is another matter entirely...

[maxr]

...paying me not to play is another matter entirely...

For that you'll need a set of out of tune bagpipes.

[Slack_Key]

For that you'll need a set of out of tune bagpipes.

yes, but three sets of in tune bagpipes rock


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nq8eotnwq0 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXm8JdC4k4c ... same song with a video of the performers...if you like the song it is worth a look...

sorry for jumping off the mandolin train for a moment....BTW I put an acoustic bass and 1940's tenor banjo on consignment to finance my MAS habit...shooting for the KM-150....wish me luck...

[maxr]

Great stuff - I prefer mainstream bagpipes myself...



Max

[DonKayG]

"For that reason, the Loar 110 seems like an nice instrument. Solid wood and hand carved. I understand it is quiet though. The other option of course is the Kentucky KM-150. Also solid wood and hand carved and well respected by most here at the café. So 4 questions: 1) Loar 110 vs the Kentucky 150, is it a hands down win for the KM-150 even with the price difference? 2) is the KM-250 series just an upgrade in looks vs the KM-150? 3) does Gold-tone even make the conversation for an equivalent model? 4) If I want to spend between 500 and 600 hundred, are there domestic makers who will match or best the KM-150? I also realize around the 600 range you start to see the baseline Eastman. I am only interested in the "A" style by the way."


I have a the Loar 110, and have two Webers, a Gallatin oval and an Absaroka for comparison. I have not played a Kentucky 150 but I really like my 110. I bought the 110 as a travel mandolin and it was from a small music store and came with a nice setup I assume done at that store and I did get to play it before I bought it. It had been played quite a bit in that store, and at the time I paid $170 for it. While it doesn't compare to the Webers in tone and volume, it's really a great little mandolin for the the money and pretty much a delight to play. I have played one Eastman 305 that I didn't like as well as my 110, but that may have been the set up on that particular particular mandolin. The only thing I'm not that crazy about is the neck profile on the 110 which is more V than I prefer.