Blue Chip v Primetone?

[LadysSolo]

I went through a period where I bought some of just about every type of pick made in my favorite thickness (0.75-1.0mm) to see what I preferred. I have some I will use in a playing out situation, but I come back to my Blue Chip and (I don't know what the material is) the "blonde" Charmed Life picks (NFI in any of the picks.) I like the Pickboy picks and Pettine on my bowlbacks, the "blonde" sounds better on my Collings, and my Pava and Weber prefer Blus Chips (or I prefer the sound with those pick pairings.) Experiment and enjoy, as someone else mentioned, changing picks is cheaper than changing mandolins!

[grassrootphilosopher]

What this thread really revealed is that different shapes and different thicknes are sometimes more relevant in contributing to the production of tone than the material.

My son found a Dunlop something or other pick of an odd shape and fairly thick size at a musicians gathering. This thing, made of regular plastic and of a price of probably 0,50 ct produces an astoundingly good sound on either guitar and mandolin. I had a heavy Red Bear pick (Dawg Pick shape) that produced a really crappy sound. I am very fond of the Red Bear classic in medium thickness though.

[Denis Kearns]

I recently got some celluloid picks from shillingtons superior and really like them. As a plus, they’re inexpensive. I’ve tried both the ivory and tortoise colors and like both. I have a Blue Chip and some Weigans (which I also like), but it hurts less to lose a Shillington’s! I keep a couple in my change pocket on my jeans along with a hand lens.

[JeffD]

What this thread really revealed is that different shapes and different thicknes are sometimes more relevant in contributing to the production of tone than the material.

I have found this helpful

[Jeff Mando]

I keep a couple in my change pocket on my jeans along with a hand lens.

I know what a pick is, but what in the #&%$@* is a hand lens???

[Ray(T)]

I think they used to be called a magnifying glass.

[Richard500]

A small magnifier with (usually a bit higher magnification) can be a loupe, with which one can inspect for wolf tones.

[Bob Buckingham]

If you live in the UK, I think the Wegen pick would be a good choice. A lot easier to get I would think.

[CES]

You people who haven't lost a pick in 10 or 12 years have my undying admiration.

I haven’t lost a BC or Wegen dating back to, man, probably 2006, but have lost or given away some celluloid and various Dunlop picks through the years. The BC goes in the strings when not in use (or in a pick pouch on my key ring if at a jam). Yes I’ll let people try them out, but never if I’m heading off to the bathroom or to get drinks. Of course, I think I’ve played out of the house twice since 2020, so there’s that…

[grassrootphilosopher]

I have found this helpful

helpful indeed.

When I started on the Mandolin I used the Golden Gate (Dawg style) pick and after that the rounded edge of a Dunlop Tortex Ultem 1,1 mm teardrop shaped pick. All of this on my Strad-O-Lin. After a sitdown with Jimmy Geaudreau I changed to playing the Strad-O-Lin with the pointy part of the same pick.

On my pricey F-5 style mandolin I also started out using a Dawg/Golden Gate style pick albeit by Michael Wegen. I found that this kind of pick is easy to play on the mandolin. But it tends to lead you to sloppy playing. A teardrop kind of pick is much more difficult to handle, but operated right produces a much better sound that the Dawg Style pick.

I sometimes tried large(r) triangle picks but have not come to like them...


I am amazed at what other style of picks people play. Antony Hannigan (I hope his health is improved) plays a super small pick. Some people play super thick picks (I could just get scratchy noises out of those). Steve Kaufman prefers a fairly thin pick (around 0,9 mm) that I find floppy and he gets the snappy Kaufman sound out of...

[meow-n-dolin]

A small magnifier with (usually a bit higher magnification) can be a loupe, with which one can inspect for wolf tones.

[Ray(T)]

I always thought that they were an Irish band - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wolfe_Tones

[mandroid]

>insert opinion here<

[sblock]

I've done many tests and comparisond of picks and concluded that 89% of tone is in shape 10% in hand and the rest in material.
By shape I mean EXACT shape and surface texture. You cannot compare validly BC and PT (Primetone) pick if the shape is not exactly same. PT often doesn't come super polished and that may feel/sound scratchy to some while BC typically come with polished edge.
If you look up mechanical properties of PEI (PT material) and PI (BC material) plastics you'll see they are not that diferent in properties (those close to environment of mandolin). PI has higher melting temperature but PEI is not that far behind and that difference would be probably noticeable only in supersonic speeds of picking that would burn other picks.
That said, I don't think the BC is too overpriced. PI is quite a bit more expensive than PEI. Space industry is willing to pay the extra for the few extra features over cheaper (but not so underperforming) PEI and mandolin pickers mostly too :-).
If you look into other "boutique" picks made from other even cheaper materials like acrylic, those ARE really overpriced, IMHO.

This perspective is very interesting to me, and mostly (although not completely) correct, in my opinion. A good part of tone is certainly in the hand -- great players seem to be able to coax a wonderful tone from many different mandolins and many different types of pick. No argument there! And tone also arises from the shape (geometry) of the pick, including not only the size and outline, but also the thickness, any bevel, and surface roughness of the material. Again, no argument. But, at the risk of seeming too disputatious, I think you may have underestimated the contribution of the material in your analysis. First, that contribution comes from the stiffness (elasticity) of the pick, and its ability to rebound after a picking stroke. Of course, that stiffness is a function of both the pick thickness and the material properties. But the other contribution of the material is lies in its ability to slide through a pickstroke, i.e., to release the string. This is certainly a function of the surface roughness, as you discussed, but there's more to it. If your analysis were complete, then (given that the mechanical properties of PI and PEI are similar), simply polishing a Primetone pick to a more glossy finish, instead of its usual matte finish, ought to yield a pick that sounds indistinguishable from an identically sized Bluechip pick. And you can get Primetone picks that are identical in size and shape to Bluechip models. Well, I have previously polished a Primetone in this fashion, and tried the comparison, but the Bluechip pick is STILL superior, in my opinion. I attribute the difference not to the surface roughness, but instead to the material of the Bluechip pick itself. It is not just made from polyimide (PI), but from a special form of PI impregnated with graphite, which serves as a solid-state lubricant. So, I would argue that the Bluechip pick releases a plucked string more easily not only because of its surface smoothness, but also due to the built-in lubricating properties of the material itself.

Your tests have suggested to you that 99% of the tone comes from a combination of either the hand or the pick shape, leaving just a 1% contribution from the pick material itself. My own experience suggests that you may have underestimated the material contribution a bit, particularly when it comes to self-lubricating, thermosetting polyimide composites, like Vespel or Meldin.

I think you're absolutely right that BC picks are not really overpriced, given the exorbitant cost of the raw material from which they're made. Also, you're right to point out that the high cost of BC picks has led some competitors to price their picks at similar high price points, even though they're just made of acrylic or horn or casein. Yes, those are seriously overpriced.

[HoGo]

All I can say is I did the experiments and I even recorded series of samples with 4 different picks shaped the same and posted here on MC - NO ONE dared to find out which is BC PT or celluloid pick, the fourth one was I believe piece of GOK plastic roughly shaped to make it possible to use it as a pick just to see if folks can distinguish at least that one in blind test. To say the truth, when i picket the picks from table with eyes closed and picked few notes I couldn't tell them apart except of the odd shaped piece of plastic that was immediately felt in fingers without picking.
The flexibility comes to question only in thin picks (well under 1mm) thicker picks that are generally used on mandolins (like the favorite CT55) don't bend measurably at all while picking, you will break string before the pick will bend out of the way and most pickers use it at an angle with the edge against string (that's why the "speed bevel" got it's attention) so any bending is out of question with such technique.
The surfaces of all those harder plastics and especially PEI and PI are very slippery and wear resistant at the speed and forces used in picking mandolin. You can lookup physical properties online (though there are many varieties so sometimes it's hard to navigate through all the data sheets) The main differences start at temperatures above 200°C. The differences in those materials are negligible at speeds and temperatures that mandolin pick meets.
The "filled" versions of PEI and PI are filled with glass fiber or carbon fiber or graphite. The carbon fiber acts as stiffener, not lubricant but the picks mentioned are generally made out of the straight unfilled versions (one of the newer pick makers uses also filled version for the Mike Marshall pick). The CF or graphite filled versions have distinctly black color. BTW the graphite fileld versions of Vespel actually have almost 25% HIGHER friction coefficients than unfilled version at low speeds and low pressures. It's the high speed/pressure application where these high tech plastics show better results.
I posted before (in other threads) that the main difference in these materials (not talking about extremes like PE or other really soft materials) is the long time wear resistance where celluloid has lowest, PEI much higher and PI perhaps slightly above by the spec sheet numbers . This is impossible to meaasure as it takes me hundreds of hours to wear celluloid version and I don't see any wear at all on the Primetone I've been using (i attack strings with pick almost parallel to strings) but my friend has worn BC in a year from large triangle to rounded small triangle (he is "power player" and attacks strings with edge of the bevel) - he gave that pick to me for my experiments as I was able to reshape and polish it to my favorite shape and size.
I've been making and modifying picks for two decades out of every piece of plastic that came my way. I still have a bag full of various picks but gave many to friends for testing and referring back.
I'd like to get my paws on pieces of various grades PAI or PEEK as they are potentially similar or even better in some properties than PI. Bu tfor picking any of these plastics do just fine.

[Zach Wilson]

The Primetone is too bright sounding and "clicky"... or, "shrill". It is cheaper however. I like my BC and Wegan.

[Tighthead]

The Primetone is too bright sounding and "clicky"... or, "shrill". It is cheaper however. I like my BC and Wegan.

Very interesting, I'm having the exact opposite experience.

Which Wegen do you use? I'm trying a 1.4 'bluegrass' pick, comparing that to a 1.5 smooth Primetone, a 1.5 ProPlec and BC TD45. On my new-to-me Pava A.

The Wegen sounds harsh and bright, while the ProPlec is muffled. The Primetone hits the sweet spot for me. The BC is considerably thinner (1.143) but sounds closest to the Primetone.

The Wegen feels the best, by far. It feels much lighter than the Primetone, maybe because of the holes?

I guess it goes to show that the combination of instrument, strings, and player make a big difference. I'm sure when I change the strings (I don't know what's on it, they feel like coated strings), I'll have to go through the picks again to see which one I like the best with the new set.

[Jim Garber]

Actually in terms of material and in the pre-BC (!) era I always liked Ultem picks. I used the large triangles for my rhythm guitar days because I wold wear out the edges of all three points by the end of a gig. I need those days I used small pointy jazz guitar picks on mandolin. I have tried and still own a bunch of BCs plus Wegens and Primetones, etc. For guitar the TAD40 are perfect for my OT rhythm guitar playing. Ad I still have the original BC TAD40 I bought early on with very little wear on the edges.

For I still am in the BC club but went through a handful of picks including the rounded tips and then realized that I liked the TP50 or TP60 not the TPRs of that thickness. And for some reason the slightly smaller TPs work well for me. Very one once’s in a while I sit down with my non-traveling pick collection and A-B or A-B-C-D and see what sounds best to me. Some of this depends on the mandolin, some on the strings, some on my mood that day.

[Zach Wilson]

Very interesting, I'm having the exact opposite experience.

Which Wegen do you use? I'm trying a 1.4 'bluegrass' pick, comparing that to a 1.5 smooth Primetone, a 1.5 ProPlec and BC TD45. On my new-to-me Pava A.

The Wegen sounds harsh and bright, while the ProPlec is muffled. The Primetone hits the sweet spot for me. The BC is considerably thinner (1.143) but sounds closest to the Primetone.

The Wegen feels the best, by far. It feels much lighter than the Primetone, maybe because of the holes?

I guess it goes to show that the combination of instrument, strings, and player make a big difference. I'm sure when I change the strings (I don't know what's on it, they feel like coated strings), I'll have to go through the picks again to see which one I like the best with the new set.

I have the Wegan TF120. It's triangular and beveled. For me the Primetone was all volume and no tone.

[sblock]

All I can say is I did the experiments and I even recorded series of samples with 4 different picks shaped the same and posted here on MC - NO ONE dared to find out which is BC PT or celluloid pick, the fourth one was I believe piece of GOK plastic roughly shaped to make it possible to use it as a pick just to see if folks can distinguish at least that one in blind test. To say the truth, when i picket the picks from table with eyes closed and picked few notes I couldn't tell them apart except of the odd shaped piece of plastic that was immediately felt in fingers without picking.
The flexibility comes to question only in thin picks (well under 1mm) thicker picks that are generally used on mandolins (like the favorite CT55) don't bend measurably at all while picking, you will break string before the pick will bend out of the way and most pickers use it at an angle with the edge against string (that's why the "speed bevel" got it's attention) so any bending is out of question with such technique.
The surfaces of all those harder plastics and especially PEI and PI are very slippery and wear resistant at the speed and forces used in picking mandolin. You can lookup physical properties online (though there are many varieties so sometimes it's hard to navigate through all the data sheets) The main differences start at temperatures above 200°C. The differences in those materials are negligible at speeds and temperatures that mandolin pick meets.
The "filled" versions of PEI and PI are filled with glass fiber or carbon fiber or graphite. The carbon fiber acts as stiffener, not lubricant but the picks mentioned are generally made out of the straight unfilled versions (one of the newer pick makers uses also filled version for the Mike Marshall pick). The CF or graphite filled versions have distinctly black color. BTW the graphite fileld versions of Vespel actually have almost 25% HIGHER friction coefficients than unfilled version at low speeds and low pressures. It's the high speed/pressure application where these high tech plastics show better results.
I posted before (in other threads) that the main difference in these materials (not talking about extremes like PE or other really soft materials) is the long time wear resistance where celluloid has lowest, PEI much higher and PI perhaps slightly above by the spec sheet numbers . This is impossible to meaasure as it takes me hundreds of hours to wear celluloid version and I don't see any wear at all on the Primetone I've been using (i attack strings with pick almost parallel to strings) but my friend has worn BC in a year from large triangle to rounded small triangle (he is "power player" and attacks strings with edge of the bevel) - he gave that pick to me for my experiments as I was able to reshape and polish it to my favorite shape and size.
I've been making and modifying picks for two decades out of every piece of plastic that came my way. I still have a bag full of various picks but gave many to friends for testing and referring back.
I'd like to get my paws on pieces of various grades PAI or PEEK as they are potentially similar or even better in some properties than PI. Bu tfor picking any of these plastics do just fine.

Although it is indisputably true that picks thicker than roughly 1 mm (40 thousandths of an inch) tend to be extremely stiff and scarcely bend at all when striking the strings, there is nevertheless a palpable difference that can be felt by players between picks that are, say, 1 mm and 1.5 mm thick (that is, 40 and 60 thou). The reason for this is that the human fingertip is incredibly sensitive to the tiniest of displacements, and we can easily discern differences in surface texture, for example, by simply running our fingers over a nearly smooth surface. We can sense a roughness that corresponds to surface features that vary by merely microns (micrometers)! And even a stiff a pick will flex by many micrometers under the force of striking mandolin strings. In the same vein, quite a number of players can easily tell the difference in flex between 1 and 1.5 mm picks. In fact, quite a few players can even tell the subtle difference in flexure between BC picks that are 50 thou, 55 thou (like the CT55), and 60 thou. That's one reason why Chris Thile asked BC to make his signature pick in 55 thou, and not just the standard thicknesses of 50 or 60 thou. Now, given how very little these picks actually flex, it's entirely possible that they will all sound about the same. But they certainly won't FEEL the same, and this "picking feel," or tactile feedback, is a Big Deal to many players. So, I am not so sure that I agree with your analysis in this regard.

On the topic of graphite-filled polyimide, as you know, these exotic plastics are used for bearings in many high-temperature, hi-tech applications -- for example, as thrust bearings in certain jet engines. And because of the imbedded graphite, these Vespel or Meldin bearings can even be run dry, without any additional lubricants. You stated that graphite inclusions in these plastics do not contribute to reduced friction, particularly at lower speeds and pressures -- and actually increase the friction. However, when picking strings, owing to the incredibly small areas of contact, the localized pressure on a flatpick can reach surprisingly high levels. Thousands of pounds per square inch (metric: hundreds of thousands of Newtons per square meter), in fact -- my experience is admittedly anecdotal -- a Bluechip pick slides off the strings more easily than a Dunlop Primetone of nearly identical size, shape, bevel, and thickness. This is not entirely attributable to the slightly rougher surfaces of the Primetones. My reason for writing that is that I have polished Primetone picks to a glossy finish, as an experiment, but they STILL don't feel the same as similar BlueChip picks. So, there must be more to the story than surface finish. I attribute it to the intrinsic slipperiness of the polyimide with graphite. But maybe there's another reason? It might be due to the small differences in intrinsic material stiffness (Young's modulus), or even something subtly different in the bevels, but I tend to doubt that.

Regardless, there seems to be a whole lot going on with picks that relates to their material composition, as well as to their shape, thickness, and surface finish. That's one reason why players go through so many different types of picks, all made from different pick materials, to find something that "feels" just right, in a tactile sense, and doesn't simply sound good. I entirely agree with you that it's nearly impossible to distinguish many different kinds of high-end picks simply based on making recordings! They basically all sound about the same! However, these picks often feel different in the hand and fingers. That is a good part of the reason why so many players express (often, deeply-felt!) personal preferences about their picks.

[Elliot Luber]

I love my Blue Chip CT55. I have several sculpted Primetones but don't really like the sound or feel. You get what you pay for. My favorite is still a Red Bear, though they are brittle and can break. I would not recommend picking up the violin because bows are REALLY expensive in comparison. There's nothing wrong with sticking to what you like, though.