Bowl back mandolin

[jturner606]

Any idea what brand this might be or what age it be?

[allenhopkins]

For "age" I'd guess 1890's-1900's, based on the wide alternating maple & rosewood (?) ribs; I have an 1890's Washburn mandola of similar construction. Pleijsier's Washburn Prewar Instrument Styles book has catalog drawings of similar instruments from the early 1890's (p. 130 et. seq.).

The four-prong tailpiece does put me off a bit; I'm assuming most or all US-made mandolins had eight-prong tailpieces. Other than that, and a possibly narrower silhouette than Lyon & Healy and other US makers, I'd guess one of the major Chicago manufacturers, vintage as stated above.

Hope that one of the true bowl-back experts will check in and give a more informed analysis.

[jturner606]

Thank you for the information.

[Jim Garber]

Unusual to have a full circular soundhole—most have ovals. This is a lower-end mandolin, probably sold by the half-dozens to be relabeled by stores. I don't recognize the headstock but my hunch is that it is pre-1900. I have an 1888 catalog page from Bruno a NYC distributor that imported and carried instruments from domestic makers. The one on the upper right does have a circular soundhole.

[jturner606]

Thank you.

[brunello97]

Jim, I like the looks of the case that is included on the bottom of the Bruno catalog page.

I've built a few of these 'coffin cases' for my bowlbacks, but I have seen many of them in the US, so this is very intersting.

The L+H molded canvas cases or variations on the 'clown shoe' types in various materials are the ones I've usually seen.

No surprise we don't seem (m)any of the 90 centavo 'pasteboard' versions.

Mick

[Jeff Mando]

The tuner cover plate is stamped, Pat. Aug 4, '91. (1891) I am guessing a research-minded person could check which patents were granted on that date and narrow the search to mandolin and possibly tell us the maker, or at least the maker of the tuners.

[NickR]

Mick! How about this case?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/23466904339...emCondition=10

[jturner606]

I thought the same about the tuners. The shape and dates should make it identifiable, but I can't find anything on them.

[Jim Garber]

Oops! I meant the upper right circular soundhole.

[Jeff Mando]

I thought the same about the tuners. The shape and dates should make it identifiable, but I can't find anything on them.

I'm not much of a researcher, but I just took 5 minutes on Google to locate the US patent office site and they state approximately 40,000 patents were granted in the year 1891. If you assume they didn't work on weekends, that would be about 150 patents on any given day to search through -- not too bad. However, I'm not sure this information is available to the public online and might require a trip to DC to examine the original documents. At any rate, we can say with confidence the mandolin was not made before 1891. And, I would bet that stamp is for the tuners and not necessarily the mandolin. Mandolin could be several years later.

Long shot, try shining a bright flashlight in the soundhole and see if there is a label, a date stamp, or a pencil date. Sometimes you get lucky.

[brunello97]

Mick! How about this case?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/23466904339...emCondition=10

Nick, Ha! I've received more than a few mandolins in of those cases.

They're the ones I'm slowly retiring with my own homemade coffin cases.

They've certainly provided some temporary protection, but they do tend to smell pretty poorly and are particularly unpleasant to the touch.

I'd prefer to go with a cloth HEB grocery bag than buy one of those things without something nice coming inside it.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I'm not much of a researcher, but I just took 5 minutes on Google to locate the US patent office site and they state approximately 40,000 patents were granted in the year 1891. If you assume they didn't work on weekends, that would be about 150 patents on any given day to search through -- not too bad. However, I'm not sure this information is available to the public online and might require a trip to DC to examine the original documents. At any rate, we can say with confidence the mandolin was not made before 1891. And, I would bet that stamp is for the tuners and not necessarily the mandolin. Mandolin could be several years later.

Long shot, try shining a bright flashlight in the soundhole and see if there is a label, a date stamp, or a pencil date. Sometimes you get lucky.

Actually Google has its own patent search but it may be hit or miss. https://patents.google.com/

I have found quite a few patents on Google and have posted them here. It is a bit hard to find this one in particular.

[jturner606]

I didn't check Google because I read it only goes back to 1975. I did findanother patent search site, but every 1891 was blank.

[jturner606]

I didn't check Google because I read it only goes back to 1975. I did findanother patent search site, but every 1891 was blank.

[Jim Garber]

Not true at all. I found my 1915 patent for my violins among others including many for Lyon & Healy, Gibson, Harmony, Vega, etc. You are reading the wrong books. Here, for example, is a patent for a mandolin from 1891: https://patentimages.storage.googlea...f/US452465.pdf

And a link to an 1891 patent for a banjo assigned to Lyon & Healy: https://patentimages.storage.googlea...6/US447947.pdf

[jturner606]

I see. Thanks

[jturner606]

I googled my photo of the tuners and came up with this:

[Jim Garber]

Interesting... this Bruno labelled, circular-hole bowlback just showed up on eBay different headstock shape, pickguard and tuners: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275432073349

[brunello97]

I googled my photo of the tuners and came up with this:

That style of inset tuner was not uncommon, so I doubt if the tuners themselves will lead you to an ID for the maker of your mandolin.

Here's a Waldo mandocello with very similar tuner set.

I wonder what it is in the patent that makes the one set unique?


Mick

[mclaugh]

I'm not much of a researcher, but I just took 5 minutes on Google to locate the US patent office site and they state approximately 40,000 patents were granted in the year 1891. If you assume they didn't work on weekends, that would be about 150 patents on any given day to search through -- not too bad.

They published 416 patents on 1891-08-04, they put them out once a week. It's probably this one by Carl W. Anderson and Joseph Anderson of Chicago, but I haven't gone through them all yet.

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=...PTO/patimg.htm

[Jim Garber]

Here’s the full patent with text description: https://patentimages.storage.googlea...9/US457143.pdf

As noted above these were probably sold to multiple makers including Weymann so might narrow the search down a bit but some makers used multiple hardware so might not be much of a tell. So it goes.

Many of these mandolins were sold by the dozens to distributors and retailers. There is nothing too special about the OP’s.

[jturner606]

Thank you everyone for the info and input.