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Thread: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chords

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    Default Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chords

    I'd appreciate your patience in reading the following question. Today I picked up an excellent well known method book, and hied me to the chapter called 'Playing "Jethro" style Three-String Chords. There I found:

    'Overall, three-string chords work best in styles like jazz, blues, choro or pop music... And if you're playing folk music such as old-time fiddle tunes and waltzes, the traditional four-string chords...work best.'

    The 'traditional four-string chords' referred to appear to be open chords in common folk keys, plus M, m, and 7th moveables in the common 4 fret span shapes (eg 'G' shape barres). In keeping with the quote above, a companion tutor book extends the Jethro chording style to a Charleston style chord progression where every chord is a M7, m7, or m7b5 - great stuff.

    Here's my quandary though. When I get to mandolining with others I currently play fiddle with, I'll be mostly playing UK and Irish folk and singer-songwriter styles, Americana and maybe a little bluegrass. I won't be entering any authenticity competitions, and I'd like to play something a bit jazzier than what you'd expect to hear behind these styles. So far I know some of the most common open and barre chords, so...

    Q: If I concentrate on Jethro style 3 note chording rather than working up an extensive library of 'standard' open and common 4 string 4 fret moveables, am I likely to have problems finding stuff to play behind the folk etc. styles, or should I be able to make it work even if it's left of centre for some? I'm not worried about crits of not being down home enough, in fact I'm aiming not to be I'd prefer to get straight to that style now, Time's winged chariot etc. Should that work OK, what do you think?

    Thanks, Max

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    To your last question: Yes
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    For any of the Irish trad tunes one thing to watch for is not to constrain the fiddles by locking them down too much. A lot of the time they need room to be ambiguous for the tunes to work. If you're knocking out a few Christy Moore songs etc, then there's a lot to be said for using more coloured chords and arpeggio techniques to add texture. Think of cspending some time listening to omplementary players like Roger Tallroth, Steve Cooney, Dennis Cahill & their thoughtful & supportive backing styles. There are quite a few videos knocking about where they discuss their approach to accompaniment & collaboration.

    A useful resource I found was Celtic Back up For All Instrumentalists

    The advantage of the three finger chords is they allow you to use the littke finger on the e string to suggest snatches the melody or add colour notes and harmonies.
    There's a lot to be said for the wandering pinky notes when done well.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    For any of the Irish trad tunes one thing to watch for is not to constrain the fiddles by locking them down too much. A lot of the time they need room to be ambiguous for the tunes to work. If you're knocking out a few Christy Moore songs etc, then there's a lot to be said for using more coloured chords and arpeggio techniques to add texture. Think of cspending some time listening to omplementary players like Roger Tallroth, Steve Cooney, Dennis Cahill & their thoughtful & supportive backing styles. There are quite a few videos knocking about where they discuss their approach to accompaniment & collaboration.
    Thanks Eoin. I guess 'power chords' are about as ambiguous as you can get - root/5th/octave? Older 'electric folk' bands like e.g. Steeleye Span used that a lot at times. What I have in mind is mando accompaniment more in the style of say The Easy Club, but I guess lots of their tunes were written with the 2 or 4 to the bar jazz guitar chording style sound in mind

    A useful resource I found was Celtic Back up For All Instrumentalists
    I just ordered that, thanks.

    [QUOTE]The advantage of the three finger chords is they allow you to use the littke finger on the e string to suggest snatches the melody or add colour notes and harmonies. There's a lot to be said for the wandering pinky notes when done well.[QUOTE]

    Do mandolinists bring their thumb over the neck much to play bass notes like some rock and blues guitarists?

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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    In answer to your last question: No, as a general rule, this is more a guitar technique and very useful when you have six strings, five fingers and longer stretches. There are exceptions, because you can do anything you’re physically capable of, so you may find some mandolin players using their thumb that way, but in general, no.
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    You may be over thinking this stuff, Max. You can learn, and play, all sorts of accompaniment using three string mandolin chords … whole triads, or abbreviated chords omitting certain notes. You can also add a fourth string to any three string chord you learn. The real trick is to learn the shapes, move them around and learn what notes or sounds you’re making, how to modify them for color (major, minor, dominant, sus, add9, etc.) and how to play them as double stops, three string or four string varieties … it seems like a lot to digest, but really not that complicated.

    Learn to play specific songs or tunes you like, get proficient, and experiment with different voicing. You’ll be on your way in no time.
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Thanks Mark - from experience of learning other instruments, it feels like I just have to get 'over the learning hump' with mandolin chords, and it'll be fine. So far I'm still the wrong side of it Maybe it's time to get the Hal Leonard Mandolin Fake Book out.

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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    To play a bit ‘jazzier’, I have said before that you should learn the 3 finger shapes in each inversion, root in the bass, third in the bass and fifth in the bass. If you’re motivated, learn the names across both 3 string sets by tracking the roots in each shape. Make the 7ths, both maj and dom, by raising the fifth ( a bit stretchy I know).
    You’ll have the pinky for color notes.

    You’ll go a long way and be ready to tackle rootless chords after you’ve got this down. A good exercise is 4-7-3-6-2-5-1 in your favorite keys. Covers all the chord types.

    People do things differently, but playing from triads is pretty fundamental.

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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Major & Minor Triads Ss ain't a bad place to start.
    mando scales
    technical exercises for rock blues & fusion mandolinists
    mp4 backing tracks & free downloadable pdfs


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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Personally, I would go with the 4 note chords and learning a few variations of them since you'll get more from them. If you take virtually any 4 note chord and chop off the note on the G string or E string, you'll get a 3 note chord. So, learn 1 chord - get 2 options. IMO, that's a better deal than learning the same thing twice. Plus you get the benefit of being able to use the 4 note chords when appropriate (like when playing rhythm).

    I understand the "learn what you use" argument, but I think it's a bad argument that overlooks a lot of functionalities 4 note chords have as well as significant learning potential. That doesn't mean "only play 4 note chords" - it means learning 3 note chords will double your work and remove some learning potentials. While Jethro only used the 3 note chords, I would be absolutely shocked if he didn't know the 4 note variations too. From what I gather of his playing, he used the 3 note chords to allow the extensions higher up to play melodies and etc (similar to how Aaron Weinstein plays I believe). So if that's your intended purpose - you'll eventually have to learn the 4 note chord anyway (because at some point the high melody note you want will be a chord tone).

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    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    The big advantage of using closed-position three note chords is that they are moveable, so you really only need to learn very few chords shapes and know where on the fretboard the root is. Obviously, you can add more shapes for effect if you prefer certain inversions, but to get started the below shapes are useful (all written with the root on middle C, but moveable to any root note on the bottom two strings):

    Major: 5-5-7-x
    Minor: 5-5-6-x
    Dim: 5-4-6-x
    Aug: 5-6-7-x
    No third: 5-5-3-x

    You can then add colour notes (7th, 9th, 6th) on the top string as Eoin has suggested. These shapes have the advantage of having the root in the bass, which is handy if you don't have another accompanist covering the root, and they also work nicely as arpeggios.

    Martin

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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Just to re-iterate: Learning chord theory is extremely important … learning systems and patterns, as Martin, Jim, Bill & others have suggested is extremely important … I’m a proponent for learning all you can about chord theory. But the most important thing, especially for a beginner, is to learn to play chords in context by playing accompaniment for actual songs or tunes that you like. Work on proficiency doing that. Then try different voicings while continuing to do that, and learn all you can about chord theory while continuing to do that.

    The “aha” moments will come while doing that.
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Not to take anything away from anything that anyone here has said, Mandozine has a 3note chord booklet by Charlie Jones that could be what you're looking for.

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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Learning how to manipulate the three triad inversions seems to me easier and more powerful than trying to learn/memorize pages from a chord book, chart, etc. Learn to fish or have a bucket of fish dumped in your lap.

    1000 chord diagrams (Hal Leonard) or 3 shapes. Just a choice, choose wisely.
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Bill, consider it a starting point. The first page in the 14-page booklet shows the shapes for 1st, 3d, & 5th on the G string, then it shows some examples for each key. Sitting with this booklet and thinking for a bit will get you to the fishing hole.
    Maybe not a straight line, but you will get there.

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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Learning how to manipulate the three triad inversions seems to me easier and more powerful than trying to learn/memorize pages from a chord book, chart, etc. Learn to fish or have a bucket of fish dumped in your lap.

    1000 chord diagrams (Hal Leonard) or 3 shapes. Just a choice, choose wisely.
    I agree...but the problem for those of us who don't know and don't have a teacher at hand, is where to start, what book, etc.

    Mandolin Exercises for Dummies by Don Julin has a whole chapter on inversions of major and minor chords, chapter 13, but I haven't gotten to that point yet...it's those kinds of chords you're referring to, that method he suggest and explain?
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Quote Originally Posted by Jairo Ramos Parra View Post
    "where to start, what book, etc."
    Everyone here was a beginner at one point or another, some of us have not progressed much beyond where we started.

    As Mark Gunter stated above (post #12), find a song or tune you like and start there. Practice that tune with every chord inversion you can until you can play it cold in any inversion, then move to another tune. If you keep doing this you'll get where you want to be. Try different keys, if a tune is in G try it in D or B. It may not be singable, but you're not after singing it (yet), you're after playing it in as a recognizable tune.

    It will eventually come, it just takes time, patience, and practice.

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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Quote Originally Posted by Jairo Ramos Parra View Post
    I agree...but the problem for those of us who don't know and don't have a teacher at hand, is where to start, what book, etc.

    Mandolin Exercises for Dummies by Don Julin has a whole chapter on inversions of major and minor chords, chapter 13, but I haven't gotten to that point yet...it's those kinds of chords you're referring to, that method he suggest and explain?
    Yes, that's exactly what I am referencing. If you understand a triad, ie, root, third, fifth of a scale makes a major chord, you have the basic knowledge. The shapes 224x (root in the bass), 233x (third in the bass) and 245 (fifth in the bass) are the key shapes. The chords are names for the root notes. You make the minor chord by flatting the third of the scale, and its powerful to make the dominant 7th chord by rising the fifth, although there are other useful shapes for that chord. With that understanding you can make 6th chords, major 7 chords, etc. (Of course you can flat the root to make maj7 and dom7 chords, but its useful to learn both ways). The Jethro chapter of his book are the key to this question. He does a great job explaining this although that's not where I learned the concept.

    He's a great teacher and well worth the time to understand what he is saying. I think his method is so much easier than rote memorization.
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Do mandolinists bring their thumb over the neck much to play bass notes like some rock and blues guitarists?
    Just a side thought to keep in mind (besides Mark Gunter's more direct/complete/correct response):

    Guitar vs. mandolin fretting hands use basically different grips. While there are always exceptions, guitarists assign one fret per finger and, mostly, reach across the inherently wider fretboard. Mandolinists have a more angled grip (as per violin) assigning 2 frets per finger, and mostly extend and retract along the length of the fretboard. This pretty much negates that "thumb over top" approach.
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    Default Re: Starting into 3-string closed chords after 4 string open chor

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Jonas View Post
    The big advantage of using closed-position three note chords is that they are moveable, so you really only need to learn very few chords shapes and know where on the fretboard the root is. Obviously, you can add more shapes for effect if you prefer certain inversions, but to get started the below shapes are useful (all written with the root on middle C, but moveable to any root note on the bottom two strings):

    Major: 5-5-7-x
    Minor: 5-5-6-x
    Dim: 5-4-6-x
    Aug: 5-6-7-x
    No third: 5-5-3-x

    You can then add colour notes (7th, 9th, 6th) on the top string as Eoin has suggested. These shapes have the advantage of having the root in the bass, which is handy if you don't have another accompanist covering the root, and they also work nicely as arpeggios.

    Martin
    Ah - I have a guitar book on how Django Reinhardt played, and the essence of it was that many 3 finger chords are so ambiguous that a relatively small number of shapes covers many different chords - sound like a similar kind of idea. The chords you list at the beginning look like the 'G shape' moveable chord family, which one can move 'up a string' to give the same type chord but based on a root a 5th higher. Great, thanks.

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