Mando Tone

[Caberguy]

Hey folks! Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm mostly a guitar player, but have been working on mandolin for a few months. I've owned many over the years, but never really stuck with it.

Anyway, I have a Kentucky KM-500, which is ok, but doesn't have great bass response, and I find the attack to be a bit vague on few frets/strings... I attributed this mostly to a high fret or two, or general need for a setup. I'm picky about tone, and have been thinking about upgrading. But, I've been hearing a very similar vagueness in much of what i've watched online.

I haven't had a chance to get out and play anything, but I have a question about tone.

A lot of the demo videos I've seen online have a bit of the same vagueness about them... the attack and note definition seems less than precise... fuzzy, a bit vague, not the sharp clear attack that I'd expect?

Is this to be expected? Or is it just sloppy playing? A bit of both?

Here's a representative example. Part of it is the dryness of the particular instrument. But the attack sounds off to me... is this a fundamental difference between mando and guitar:

[Bill McCall]

You’ll get a slightly different sound with 2 courses of strings versus a single course. But listen to Adam Steffey for a sample of clean, clear playing.

Btw, James, the fellow in the video, often shows himself rather than the mandolin.

[jherm]

i gree with ya bill ...adam steffey ....adam steffey ...adam steffey baby.....also that new mando player for the "cleverly's" especially on the song "wait a minute"....that guy's mando sounds unbelievable.

[Jill McAuley]

This Sierra Hull video has great tips about achieving good tone. Lots of things factor into the differences you hear between guitar and mandolin tone wise - type of pick used (teardrop/pointy vs. rounded) thickness of pick etc.

[dhergert]

True that there are differences between quality of instruments as well as different picks and pick shapes...

But also, the angle that the pick hits the strings and also the stroke itself make a huge difference in tone and volume, as well as the effects that are desired. For example, hitting the string with the pick, flat-on, can produce more power and volume, while angling the pick as it hits the strings can produce a more subtle, sweeter tone. Plus you can produce effects such as tremolo and double stops more efficiently with certain pick angles and approaches. I'd suggest spending significant time experimenting with that before you jump into the different instrument and different pick rabbit holes; your ears and your touch as you hold the pick will develop sensitivity to the different sounds and effects that you can produce, on really any instrument.

Having a nice instrument and a techie pick can be fun, I don't want to discourage that. But there are also lots of things that are controlled by the player. And yes, the touch for mandolin can be very different from the touch for guitar and other plectrum instruments.

Good luck with this!

[Mitch Stein]

As long as we're hitting all the standard notes on this, let's not forget to recommend Rob M.s setup book to get the most/best sound out of that sucker. I've read a lot of threads about strings and getting better results out of upping or downing the action on different types of strings so that too.

Different string weights/materials + proper setup.

[Eric Platt]

While there are some similarities to guitar and mando, there is a whole world of differences too. The guitar box is much bigger and therefore is going to produce more bass. Even a J-200 with maple back and sides is going to have more bass response than a small mandolin. Just the nature of the instrument. Think more like it's a small arch-top guitar rather than a Martin D.

If, after following all the excellent suggestions above you still wish for more bass response from your mandolin, maybe look at getting an oval hole, or even a flattop with mahogany back and sides.

[MontanaMatt]

While there are some similarities to guitar and mando, there is a whole world of differences too. The guitar box is much bigger and therefore is going to produce more bass. Even a J-200 with maple back and sides is going to have more bass response than a small mandolin. Just the nature of the instrument. Think more like it's a small arch-top guitar rather than a Martin D.

If, after following all the excellent suggestions above you still wish for more bass response from your mandolin, maybe look at getting an oval hole, or even a flattop with mahogany back and sides.

Or consider mandola, octave, or 10 string options…

[Jim Garber]

Caberguy: I understand the concept of note definition and concern with bass. Not sure what you are talking about attack especially as built in to some instruments. I assume that attack is more in the hands and pick of the player. Comments above address some of that. If at all possible get yourself to a store that has a pile of good quality instruments. Videos often don’t give you enough sense of tone although the better the player the better it will sound.

Marc MacGlashan has a nice nice clean touch. Here is is playing a more modest instrument than usual, not the Loar F-5s he has demoed for Carter Vintage.



Here he is playing an upper end Gilchrist oval hole. You can hear some good mandolin bass here, too.

[maxr]

Another possibility - how much of the mandolin back is touching your front? Some (I'm among them) reckon that can deaden the Mando sound a bit. As an experiment, try pushing your left arm forward a bit so not much of the mandolin back is touching you. If it sounds appreciably louder and clearer when you do that, maybe you found the cause. That's why some of us use the ToneGard device - a steel wire cage that holds the back away from you. Others reckon they can do as well without it.

[Charlie Bernstein]

All good answers above. The advice on the choice and use of picks is startlingly true.

I've only been fooling with mando for a few years. So don't take any of this as gospel, but here are some other things I think I've gleaned:

Very generally, while f-hole mandos are louder, round and oval holes are warmer. Maple backs and sides are brighter than other woods. Solid wood is louder and clearer than plywood (like the $50 used mando that got me started).

I'm on my fourth mando, and so far it's my favorite. It's an oval A with birch back and sides, and it's warmer and more three-dimensional than the more expensive f-hole maple A I had before.

Also worth mentioning: Flattop and bent-top mandos (e.g. Big Muddy, Flatiron, Martin, Red Line) can have very loud and pleasing sound. I had a spruce-and-rosewood Big Muddy that I probably should have stuck with.

Also, here's a word to the wise: Comparisons of guitar and mando inevitably (maybe even rightly) can trigger resistance from the pros. They want you to learn to think mando and forget what you think you know from playing guitar.

Welcome to Mando Cafe. I learn a lot here. You will, too!

[Caberguy]

Thanks for the responses, gang.

To be clear, I don't expect my mandolin to sound like a little guitar, or to have the thumping bass of my D-18. Though I'm definitely still developing my ear for what a mandolin should sound like in hand (despite having listened to lots of mandolin music).

On the video that I posted, I hear, in particular, a difference in attack as he moves around a bit... above about the 5th fret on the G and D strings sound particularly fuzzy to me, as does some of the chord chopping, as opposed to the lead runs on the A and E. At moments I find that it sounds pretty good to me, and at others, not so much.

As for the other stuff, my mandolin is reasonably well set up, but I haven't had the frets leveled. I do have Rob's set up book already. I try, as much as I can, to play with just the corner where the rim meets the back of the instrument resting against my body, not the whole back (I'm not inclined to get a ToneGuard, though I am aware of them). I have lots of picks (Bluechip, Red Bear, Wegen, Golden Gate, Clayton etc.) but am still more inclined to use the pointier ones, I've mostly been playing with Red Bear and Clayton Ultem large triangles recently.

As I'm mostly interested in playing bluegrass, I'm probably not going to move to an oval hole soon (actually recently sold a Kentucky KM-174), though have been looking longingly at a couple of old F-2s and F-4s online.

But, as for the bass response, similar to many fairly inexpensive guitars I've played, on which the volume and attack drops off noticeably from the A to the low E string, I find that the attack on the G string rolls off noticeably from what I get on the D string, though it's not as bad on the KM-500 as it has been on some of the other mandolins that I've owned (a KM-250, a Gold Tone, etc.). I get a similar uneven attack/tone on the D string once I get about about the 5th fret (I know that this is somewhat unavoidable on the wound strings as you get up the board). I'm not looking for thump, per se, but looking for more evenness. My current mandolin is the highest end f-hole instrument that I've played... I suppose I need to get out and play some things and see how they all compare.

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . as for the bass response, similar to many fairly inexpensive guitars I've played, on which the volume and attack drops off noticeably from the A to the low E string, I find that the attack on the G string rolls off noticeably from what I get on the D string, though it's not as bad on the KM-500 as it has been on some of the other mandolins that I've owned (a KM-250, a Gold Tone, etc.). I get a similar uneven attack/tone on the D string once I get about about the 5th fret (I know that this is somewhat unavoidable on the wound strings as you get up the board). I'm not looking for thump, per se, but looking for more evenness. . . .

One friend of mine is a long-time pro mandolin and fiddle player who teaches and has done a lot of studio work. He'd call what you're describing "the nature of the beast." The longer you play mando, the more control you'll have over string-to-string tone differences and the more you'll be able to rein in "the beast."

[Jim Garber]

I'm not looking for thump, per se, but looking for more evenness. My current mandolin is the highest end f-hole instrument that I've played... I suppose I need to get out and play some things and see how they all compare.

I get it. BTW even though I posted two videos above of Marc MacGlashan playing oval holes I think his playing is super clean on both oval holes and f-hole mandolins. I have a feeling that the mandolins you will end up with are upper end ones from small shops. If you have a few thousand in hand or can save up you should do so for a good A5 style instrument. I would guess $3000-5000 would do it for the tonal qualities you are looking for. F models will be much higher but in most cases you are just paying for the extra cosmetics, not the extra quality or tone.

I have gone through quite a few mandolins and I have played even more in stores or that friends have owned that have left me cold in terms of tone. All my main mandolins have the qualities you are describing but there are quite a few makers that would fit in that class. I think Pava/Ellis and Girouard fall into those categories. I have played some Collings A5s that I liked but not all.

BTW you mention a number of times having needed to level the frets. In the meantime, before you actually buy a new mandolin, you might have a pro do the work. Rob’s set up book might suffice if you have the skills to do this. Frankly I trust the pros over my own skills and also don’t want to screw up the set up of my mandolins. You do sound very particular for set up so why have an amateur do the work.

[Caberguy]

Thanks for the input.

I'm not completely dissatisfied with the tone of the KM-500 (especially since I got a really good deal on it), it's mostly just the G string that leaves me a bit cold. And I keep on telling myself that it's fine to learn on, and that I should just use it build my chops. But I've also been looking online at some things, Ratliff Country Boy, some Northfields, used Flat Irons, Silver Angels, etc. I'd probably have actually upgraded by now were it not for the fact that I have a custom guitar being built right now that I'll have to pay for in a couple of months.

As for the setup, I've done a bit of work on it, but have put off having a look at the frets. I know that the factory setups from Saga/Kentucky are a bit of a running joke around here. I adjusted the nut, and have been meaning to bring the saddle down a bit more. I'll probably do that this week at some point, and I'll bust out the fret rocker while I have the strings off. I don't know if it actually NEEDS a fret leveling, but I haven't check it yet. Could just as easily be sloppy fretting or the nature of the beast.

One of the problems is that I live in Syracuse, and the closest tech that I trust is about an hour and a half away... though, since this isn't a particularly expensive instrument, I might be willing to give someone local a shot.

The other problem is that I'd realistically have to drive about 4-5 hours to either Boston, NYC, or Pittsburgh to get my hands on any decent mandolins to try out.

[John Soper]

Caberguy - another thought - changing picks and/or strings can be a cheap way (relative to buying a new instrument) to adjust the tonality of your instrument. It took me a while to "find" the right picks for mandolin - thicker than I used on guitar for 30 years when I really started playing mandolin seriously. While J74s have been good for most of my mandolins, I have a custom mandolin that was loud as hell, but didn't have great balance between bass and treble strings. It took several sets of strings before I found that a set of Thomastic Mittles toned down the treble response & still gave me plenty of volume. YMMV

[pops1]

Have you checked intonation on the G string? Seriously it makes a difference in sound when the intonation is right on. Changing the string height also changes the intonation. During times of the year when the weather, humidity or lack of, changes and your mandolin changes with it plan to lower/raise the bridge or intonate to keep your sound the best.

[Chuck Leyda]

Good thread!

Tone being subjective, it doesn't get any better (imho) than John Reischman.

[jimmy powells]

Personally I prefer a rosewood bridge to ebony just for tone.

[Skip Kelley]

As far as tone is mentioned, it is very subjective depending on the individual’s ear.
I recommend listening to the original Tonepoems and listen to the different instruments played.
No matter the instrument, Grisman and Rice sound like themselves.

[Caberguy]

Caberguy - another thought - changing picks and/or strings can be a cheap way (relative to buying a new instrument) to adjust the tonality of your instrument. It took me a while to "find" the right picks for mandolin - thicker than I used on guitar for 30 years when I really started playing mandolin seriously. While J74s have been good for most of my mandolins, I have a custom mandolin that was loud as hell, but didn't have great balance between bass and treble strings. It took several sets of strings before I found that a set of Thomastic Mittles toned down the treble response & still gave me plenty of volume. YMMV

Good point about the strings... I have a couple of different configurations lying around, I should give them a try, haven't really experimented with them yet. I think I have Martins on there right now, but I have some D' addario and Ernie Ball around here.

I've tried a handful of picks, I think what I like best at the moment is my Red Bear C-Heavy (perhaps not surprisingly, I prefer my Mediums on the guitar, though a Red Bear Medium is still pretty much rigid). With a bunch of other things tied for second. One surprising thing is just how bright the Wegen sounds on it.

[Caberguy]

Have you checked intonation on the G string? Seriously it makes a difference in sound when the intonation is right on. Changing the string height also changes the intonation. During times of the year when the weather, humidity or lack of, changes and your mandolin changes with it plan to lower/raise the bridge or intonate to keep your sound the best.

Good call. It is actually I touch sharp when I play fretted notes now that I check... that might be part of it sounding off. I'll spend some getting it a bit more dialed in tomorrow. Not sure how much of that is bridge placement, and how much is the nut slots, action height and relief... the action certainly isn't high, but it could be a bit lower, particularly on the G string.

[Dave Sheets]

After seeing Bill McCall's comment above about just how much the player matters in a demo recording of a mandolin, I went to youtube and listened to a number of demos of different mandolins from a couple of different players at different stores on a couple of different mandolins each. Kind of an interesting experiment.

I gotta say, Bill was dead on (as were some other folks who commented on this issue). You could hear the differences in mandolins, but boy were those tonal differences in players noticeable. I think you really want to hear someone play a couple of different mandolins to have any chance of telling what is the mandolin and what is the player.

One demonstrator sounded way better on a Gibson than on Collings mandolins, and I vastly prefer playing Collings. His style sure matched up
well with the Gibson though, he was getting some nice tones from an instrument that I'm pretty sure won't suit my playing at all.

No shade or negativity intended toward anywhere here, just a comment on just how much influence the player has on tone, and how different combinations of players and instruments seem to be a big effect. I expect the real stars know how to sound good on pretty much anything.

[Caberguy]

Ope... the MAS got me. NMD forthcoming.

I got the KM-500 set up nice and playing well. But the tone has still been leaving me a bit cold.

[JeffD]

From my experience I have some thoughts. No science here.

In a well made mandolin, in good condition, set up properly, all the strings have a consistent tone - different pitches sure, but tones that are in the same family. The best mandolins I have ever played seem to have the least difference between the tones of the strings. But many mandolins have consistent tone bottom to top. If that tone is not what you like, it is probably best to try out a different mandolin, or, of course, change to a different kind of strings, or different pick.

In contrast, when it is a particular string or pair of strings whose tone is objectionable, and the other strings are a tone you like, more often than not something is wrong. Once I discovered that my e strings had cleverly avoided their nut slots when I tightened them after a strings change. Yikes! In another case I had accidentally replaced one pair of strings from a different pack, and it was a different kind of string - 80/20 bronze versus phosphor bronze, something like that.

Thing is, on a mandolin little differences make a big difference, little things mean a lot.