European vs American approaches to the mandolin

[Jim Imhoff]

I have heard from different master players from both sides of the Atlantic (might hear from someone across the Pacific from my Oregon home) about this. Fabio Giudice, Chris Aquavella, August Watters, and a few others have pointed out some specifics, mostly about right hand technique. I have heard that some European players think Chris Thiele's Bach sounds like country fiddling, and that the lighter, shorter bowlbacks are more suitable than Gibsons to the sometimes intricate and delicate playing required in Calace, Munier, and others.
It's like asking a group of Bach keyboard specialists about Glenn Gould's two recordings of the Goldberg Variations. I suspect this might generate some very divergent replies, but to be clear I am not so interested in "I prefer..." but rather "here are some specific differences that I am aware of..."
OK, the floor is open--don't fall in.
jim

[Bob A]

I'm unable to address this question as anyone near "master player" - even "player" might be an exaggeration, alas.
However, I have experimented with any number of mandolin types, which provides a low level of cred.

There's little doubt that there are significant differences in the tonality between bowlback and carved instruments, to say nothing of string scale and tension, and suitability for purpose.

There's also considerable differences between bowlbacks. I've found that American bowlbacks tend toward primary tonality, while the Italians generally are more overtone-rich. Exceptions might be made for some of the Roman bowls; I find my Pecoraro/Embergher to have more punch, you might say, though it was purpose-built as a soloist instrument. I've not had hands-on experience with their orchestrally-focused mandolins.

There are differences in construction among the groups; some Neapolitans are very lightly constructed, using generally thinner stock, while others are heavily built and have a more compressed overtone series. This does not impinge on the strength of the instrument; even the most fragile-appearing instrument has the structural strength inherent in the arching of the belly and its setting within the body of the bowl.

I have a contemporary Greek bowlback, and the design of the top is completely different from the Italian school. Instead of an arch built into the top, it is basically flat, mounted atop the bowl. The thickness of the top is greater than the Italians, yet it is deliberately thinned at the edges, rather akin to the flexible section of a speaker cone, with the still cone supported by a flexible attachment. The thicker center portion supports the bridge, while the thin rim allows freer vibration than would otherwise be the case.

I cannot speak to the German school of making, as I don't have any of that breed of instrument, but obviously they are built to a rather different concept of tone than the Italian mandolins, and played with a totally different style of pick.

I don't think it's so easy to differentiate based on geography; there's plenty of variation in the European bowlbacks. Fortunately, most mandolins are not terribly pricey, leaving the player the option of obtaining several different types over the course of time, and discerning the varying suitabilities of each type to match the player's intention and sensibilities.

I noticed that I haven't mentioned the American flatback instruments, with which I have no experience; nor have I taken the opportunity to praise the Lyon & Healy carved instruments, which seem to find their place somewhere between the sparkle and brightness of the Italians, and the deeper tones of the Gibson style instruments, nor have I gone into the oval vs f-hole Gibsons. Plenty has been written about that subject, you don't need me to rattle on about it.

As for Chris Thiele, I might hope that he has taken the opportunity to broaden his instrumental palette; for all I know, his country fidling sound might be inherent in his choice of instrument, or in his essential instrumental roots. I'm in no position to comment or criticise his playing, nor his choice of the tools with which he chooses to express himself. As ever, critics criticise; it's their nature, they can't help themselves.

I'll close with this quote:

“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”

—Theodore Roosevelt

[DavidKOS]

Thank you both for the interesting posts; even though I am an American, I play in a much more European style, and don't own any Gibson-style instruments, so this is a long-time topic of personal interest.

I have a contemporary Greek bowlback, and the design of the top is completely different from the Italian school. Instead of an arch built into the top, it is basically flat, mounted atop the bowl. The thickness of the top is greater than the Italians, yet it is deliberately thinned at the edges, rather akin to the flexible section of a speaker cone, with the still cone supported by a flexible attachment. The thicker center portion supports the bridge, while the thin rim allows freer vibration than would otherwise be the case.

My Greek bowlback has a canted top; I have full-size Greek bouzoukis with the construction that you mention, flat w/ the inner edge thinned. It works very well for the sound they want for Greek music. Over the years, I have seen a rare couple of bouzoukis with the canted top - possibly made in Italy.

"here are some specific differences that I am aware of..."
OK, the floor is open--don't fall in.
jim

What I hear mostly in American mandolin style is use of a bigger, heavier, longer-scale thicker-strung archtop instrument, rather than a lighter, brighter, more overtone rich shorter-scale lightly strung instrument.

That, with the American use of thicker, larger, often rounder picks to the smaller somewhat thinner and more pointed European style picks, the American preference in tone to pick more sul tasto (near the fingerboard), makes for a deeper "woodier" tone with less brilliance; and couple that with the practical fact that lots of American "pickers' have to compete with banjos and fiddles for volume rather than use a wide range of dynamics.

Plus the style of music people play has a big influence. I'm sure I use much more tremolo in my Italian-inspired style than my buddies that play lots of ITM. Jazz players will have an "accent" as will people that play a lot of fiddle tunes.

All of the above is very general, and exceptions are found everywhere, but it's a start.

[Simon DS]

Lots of very different countries in Europe, so the main premise, USA/Europe is difficult to comprehend. People from some of the smaller countries that are more distant from France and Italy may feel insulted by being referred to as European.

If you’re looking for contrast, you could check out balalaika players to see v different approaches, but do that quickly because a lot of music on Youtube as elsewhere is being indirectly censored.

[DavidKOS]

Lots of very different countries in Europe, so the main premise, USA/Europe is difficult to comprehend. People from some of the smaller countries that are more distant from France and Italy may feel insulted by being referred to as European.

If you’re looking for contrast, you could check out balalaika players to see v different approaches, but do that quickly because a lot of music on Youtube as elsewhere is being indirectly censored.

Good points! There were mandolin traditions in the Ukraine and other Eastern European countries that have their own traditions and style. I've also seen Turkish mandolin method books.

[Jim Imhoff]

Lots of very different countries in Europe, so the main premise, USA/Europe is difficult to comprehend. People from some of the smaller countries that are more distant from France and Italy may feel insulted by being referred to as European.

If you’re looking for contrast, you could check out balalaika players to see v different approaches, but do that quickly because a lot of music on Youtube as elsewhere is being indirectly censored.

Good point; I'm a retired choral musician and I get annoyed with people talking about "African music" as if there's no difference between a cappella Zulu isychatamiya and township jive or Malian jazz bands. I have studied with Czech and Italian teachers, and participated in the German Bruchsal Zupffest, so I should be more clear in my generalization. Along similar lines, I noticed that there were very few mandocellos in the German orchestras, mostly guitars. But I posted that observation a few years ago and got lectured by people with far more world-wide knowledge.
Nevertheless, the comments I see so far are helpful, the distinction between the dominance of carved top Gibson-styled instruments compared to the bowlbacks more prevalent among Italian and German players. Historically (opening myself up for lecture again, I know this is oversimplified) the mandolin in America was popular in the Golden Age orchestras, lost its status for a while and made a comeback with the folk and bluegrass crowds, with Gibson arrogantly kicking the bowlbacks into the ocean. Now it seems players are "discovering the classics" and I hear Bach at bluegrass festivals. But I remember talking with Adam Roscowicz, who is mandocellist on the fabulous MMQ Dvorak American Quartet recording. I asked him some questions about the Cello Suites and he replied "Hey--I'm a bluegrass picker."
My real interest is more in playing technique than build, although I am sure that the shape and design of the instruments is a major factor in that. And I will say again (and my doctoral studies included a lot of Bach) that when I listen to Thiele, Marshall, or Hull playing Bach I do not hear "country fiddle music."
Maybe one of you mandolin historians can shed some light on American playing techniques during the Golden Age, before the bluegrass "banjo killer" approach became so popular. I assume Goichberg, Pettine, and Bickford have something to say about that, but here I am looking for information, not offering it...
jim

[grassrootphilosopher]

You distinguish between "European" and "American" approaches.
We could ask wether Europeans and Americans playing the same music (a Bach piece, "Fisher´s Hornpipe" or "Gold Rush") use a different technique to play it. I do not think that this is the case. I do think that within the genre people using the same type of instrument and pick will use about the same apropriate "technique" to play the same piece. I do think though that the region where a musician comes from, his personal background etc. will influence his playing, giving it a "local spice".

When the distinction between the approaches insinuates a difference between the instruments, well there is a sonic difference between a Gibson style mandolin as opposed to the bowlback or portugese mandolins that are directed at the classical (or Choro etc.) player. I do think that the type of instrument requires an adjustment of the technique to bring out the best of tone. It is quite noticable if you listen to Catarina Lichtenberg and Carlo Aonzo on one side as opposed to Chris Thile and Evan Marshal on the other side (playing classical music). The combination of the technique and the instrument produces a different sound. I think that the predudice against all thinks not classical causes the comment that Chris Thile playing Bach sounds like country fiddling. I don´t think it´s true that he does.

When you look at on type of instrument I find that there are more than one way of playing. One of the best videos on youtube showing this is this pick comparison by Ralf Leenen:

It shows that there are at least two approaches to play classical mandolin. Is one better than the other? To my mind: No. Do they produce a different sound? Essentially no.

[DavidKOS]

the mandolin in America was popular in the Golden Age orchestras, lost its status for a while and made a comeback with the folk and bluegrass crowds,
.............
Maybe one of you mandolin historians can shed some light on American playing techniques during the Golden Age, before the bluegrass "banjo killer" approach became so popular. I assume Goichberg, Pettine, and Bickford have something to say about that, but here I am looking for information, not offering it...
jim

That's a good place to look, considering that the first mandolin boom in the USA did involve sheet music, large ensembles, etc., and the 2nd mandolin boom of Old-time and Bluegrass involved a lot of "ear" musicians that may not have ever seen a Bickford book.

[mandopops]

Here’s a couple of general observations based on my personal experiences. In my early Mandolin days, I had the good fortune to take lessons from 2 masters of the instrument, Jethro Burns, an American & Giovanni Vicari, a European (Sicilian). I will say upfront, I don’t claim All Americans teach the way Jethro did or All Europeans teach the way Mr. Vicari did. & this is not about Jethro=Jazz & Giovanni=Classical. You should not pigeonhole either one in that way.

They preferred different models of Mandolins. Jethro is most often pictured playing various model Gibsons, so I believe it was his preferred choice. He did endorse Washburn in his later years, but it was a Gibson-style F. He did a have few bowl backs (tater bugs) on his wall down in his teaching area. Though they were more decorative, I don’t remember him ever playing one. Giovanni played his Martin or one of a couple of Catanias, flat & bowls backs. He told me one of his students was looking to buy a Mandolin & took Giovanni out to Mandolin Brothers to test drive a few. This was mid 70s, I visited the store a few times then. They had a good selection of Mandolins to sample. Giovanni told me he didn’t like the “Gibs” (Gibsons). He did say he really liked a Lyon & Healy he played. The Lyons are more similar to bowls.I found out later, he owned a Gibson Mandola. I seem to remember reading that traditional bowl players find F5s are too heavy & the Calace stretches are more difficult.

Jethro’s approach to teaching was, he would play a tune, demo it, put it down on tape, then I’d take the tape home & work on it, then return & he’d work on it with me.
Giovanni taught from music notation, he taught me to read. (Jethro said he could read, but it was never part of our lessons. He did encourage me to learn.) Giovanni studied Music as a young child in Sicily, both Mandolin & Violin. He said he spent 6 months studying Solfeggio without an instrument. He said you couldn’t teach that way in America, people would think you were ripping them off.

Jethro used alternate picking for the most part. I don’t remember him being dogmatic about it, but it was just his natural way. Giovanni taught that whenever you went to a new string you started on a down stroke, no matter if it was a down or upbeat. I later learned, that it is common with Gypsy Jazz players, a European thing?
Giovanni emphasized staying on a string using your pinky more often to keep a phrase on the same string instead of going to the open & back if possible. Jethro definitely encouraged using the pinky, but again, not as dogmatic.

When Jethro played a fiddle tune, besides just jazzing it up, I think he played alternate picking with ringing open strings. In the Bickford book I used with Mr. V, there was a couple of fiddle tunes we played. Using his picking approach, I think they sounded more Celtic (?). We worked on the famous Bach Bouree in E min. He wrote it out with lots of double stops, because he knew I played chord melody. He instructed me to play it all down strokes to sound like a harpsichord.

One funny thing, of course I learned to play chord melody style right from the start from Jethro. When I played that way for Mr. V, he called it Banjo style, as in Tenor Banjo, which he was a whiz at.
All this makes me a hybrid player, neither fish nor fowl. I am still grateful for my time with these two gentlemen.

I wonder about the comments on Thile’s Bach playing being country fiddle sounding, does Thile play straight alternate picking utilizing more open strings on an F5? As opposed to the Euro picking on a bowl? I don’t have a dog in this fight. Either is fine with me. Tho I would have liked to hear Thile play Bach on an F4 oval.

A good comparative listen would be the Carlo & Dawg Traversata album. A wonderful blending of the differences.

Joe B

[brunello97]

That was a pretty awesome post, Joe.
Thanks!

I recall numerous folks here sniffing and dissing the Dawg's playing on Traversata when it first came out.
As if it were somehow not 'authentic' enough when compared with Carlo's playing.
That kind of tut-tutting talk made me laugh then as it does now. I highly doubt it was ever the intention of the two.
I took it more as a "My American Cousin" kind of thing and loved the differences in approach.
I'm sure CA and DG did, too.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Agree 100%, Mick! Carlo always admired many of the virtuosos of the mandolin including Jethro and Dawg among many others. I recall he and Butch Baldassari were at one time planning a duet album. Sadly it never came to fruition.

[mandopops]

Yes, Mick, I believe Traversata was intended as a hands across the water celebration.
Yes, Jim, Carlo is a fan of Jethro & the Dawg. At one of Carlo’s gatherings we were going around the circle introducing ourselves, after I introduced myself he whispered “tell them about Jethro,” so I added that I was a Jethro student. He smiled big. It was a cool moment for me. Another time I asked him about recording the Traversata album with Grisman, if it was good experience. His eyes got big & he expressed it was a thrill. It was like a kid meeting a sports hero.

Joe B

[brunello97]

...I recall he and Butch Baldassari were at one time planning a duet album. Sadly it never came to fruition.

That would have been something.
Butch with his ever so slightly relaxed feel and Carlo with his animated, sometimes comic intensity.

Desafortunadamente nunca pudimos escucharlos juntos.

Mick

[tmsweeney]

DavidKos I think your statement about American Mandolin competing with Fiddle and Banjo, and there fore seeking a less "Bright" tone is a very valid point, and I think that fact in itself may have driven the design of the flat back American mandolin into popularity in America.
So now that the instruments them selves do not sound "European" the music itself and compositional intent and playing technique for the instrument takes on a different quality as well.
Obviously we use a lot less tremolo in American mandolin music, plectrum closer to the fret board and tend to be more chordal where European tends to treat mandolin as more of a pure melody instrument.
As for Thile, I believe what ever instrument he chose he would have become virtuoso at, we are just lucky he chose the mandolin.
Take someone like Ostroushko who could play comfortably on either side of the Atlantic, although I imagine his mandolin playing had an "American" quality to it.
On the liner notes of the first Modern Mandolin Quartet album Mike Marshall talks about the mandolin as being considered "plebian" or common. It seems now days in Europe you find most of the "known" mandolin music to be classical and in America mostly folk.