Double Sharps in Notation

[Dean2]

Hi All,

I wanted to run through the recent video posted by Jake Howard on fingerings for Bach's Partita #3 Prelude to compare notes. When I got to measure 47, I was confused by his use of a G natural (D string, 5th fret), as I'd been using a F# (D string, 4th fret). So, I pulled out my sheet music and noticed a double sharp sign (x) that I'd missed. I then found a few other pdf copies online and saw the same thing. Of course, I had to google the sign in the first place to figure out what it was.

BUT!!! The sheet music I've seen shows an F, which due to the key signature, is ALREADY an F#. Wouldn't a double sharp move that up to G#??? Or does the incidental sign refer to the "dot," rather than the actual note?

Thanks for any education you can provide. I only made it through junior high on the tuba and never had to deal with double sharps (well, flats)!

Dean

[DavidKOS]

An F double sharp is enharmonic to a G natural.

F-F#-F## (G) fret by fret.

The use of double sharps and flats helps the music "spell" correctly as it moves through various tonal centers and chords.

That's also why the piece has the E#'s, A#'s and B#'s.

[Dean2]

Thanks for the reply. I had expected it to be, in the key of E, where F is already sharp:

F#-F##-F### (G#)

If I could play the piece fast enough to play along with the record, I would have (hopefully) realized I was off in those two measures. Now to relearn. And play around with some of the different fingerings Jake uses to see what works better for me.

[bigskygirl]

…If I could play the piece fast enough to play along with the record...

Hi Dean, I’d recommend a slow downer program like amazing slow downer or audio-stretch.

[JeffD]

Umpty ump years ago I was trying to learn "Never On Sunday" from the album of the original movie soundtrack.

Of course it was an LP.

I discovered that if I put about $2.50 worth of quarters on the record it slowed it down and dropped the tone about a fifth, so I could learn it one string over.

I learned a few tunes that way, way back in the way back.

[Jim Imhoff]

I discovered that if I put about $2.50 worth of quarters on the record it slowed it down and dropped the tone about a fifth, so I could learn it one string over.

You were a tech wizard way ahead of your time!
When I was learning scores (to conduct) I was lousy on piano so I would record a part on a Grundig TK6L, one of the first high quality battery-powered tape recorders. I would record at one speed then play back slower so I could play along with the next part. People have it too easy today with digital-slow-down. (Which I use to practice my mandocello parts all the time ).
Back to the double-sharp thing, as a former theory teacher I get frustrated with people saying it doesn't make any difference if you call it Fx (double sharp) or G; I once sat in a workshop where the leader said "Let's play a Bb scale: Bb, C, D, D#...." UGH! This would also make no sense if you were playing a simple I IV V progression: Bb, D#, F ?????
If all you care about is sticking your finger in the right spot, fine, but you do not understand music, or the relationships among notes in a key.
I have the Partitas in an Urtext Verlag edition, supposedly the most carefully edited and true-to-original sources (similar to Baerenreiter). That measure 47 and 48 have the FXpattern in an arpeggio which leads to meas 49 where we jave a G# in the same metric spot. The FX serves as a leading tone that resolves in the G#. If that doesn't register with you, think of singing "DO RE MI FA SOL LA LA DO" (Where's the "TI?"). Or spelling the piece as "Bok Parteeta."

OK, I'm done except to say I envy you because I can't quite play most of these pieces, no matter how you spell them.
jim

[keith.rogers]

..
I wanted to run through the recent video posted by Jake Howard on fingerings for Bach's Partita #3 Prelude to compare notes. When I got to measure 47, I was confused by his use of a G natural (D string, 5th fret), as I'd been using a F# (D string, 4th fret). So, I pulled out my sheet music and noticed a double sharp sign (x) that I'd missed. I then found a few other pdf copies online and saw the same thing. Of course, I had to google the sign in the first place to figure out what it was.

BUT!!! The sheet music I've seen shows an F, which due to the key signature, is ALREADY an F#. Wouldn't a double sharp move that up to G#??? Or does the incidental sign refer to the "dot," rather than the actual note?
...

I *think* your question was answered, but Double Accidentals apply to the written note ("dot"?) irrespective of the key signature.

Possibly not always 100% accurate on arcane topics but here's one link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accide...le_accidentals

[DavidKOS]

... as a former theory teacher I get frustrated with people saying it doesn't make any difference if you call it Fx (double sharp) or G; I once sat in a workshop where the leader said "Let's play a Bb scale: Bb, C, D, D#...." UGH! .

Thanks, Jim, for a perfect example of what happens when one does not spell the scales or chords correctly.

Sure, it's the right pitches...but it's not exactly the right notes, so to speak.

[Dean2]

Thanks everyone.

I realized after posting this that a F# up two would make measures 47 and 48 exactly the same as 49, so obviously that was wrong.

I will look into one of the slow downer programs. I tabbed the Partita in TablEdit and was using that to slow it down. But, since I'd tabbed it out wrong, I learned it wrong. Garbage in, garbage out.

Dean