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Thread: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    A chord is three or more single pitches heard simultaneously.
    A dyad is two single pitches heard simultaneously.
    A power chord is a dyad and not a chord.
    Your learning is incomplete. Take a class from Keith Murphy on mandolin rhythm playing and
    on "1 finger chords", discover things like "4xxx is a full G major chord". Really handy stuff after
    your fingers are tired playing full chop chords or you cannot make all of them go right places
    after the 5th guinness. If you do not know Keith Murphy, he wrote the first tune on this
    video (and quite a few more): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW7jumYTPQc

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    For what it may be worth, and maybe that's not a lot, I also play button accordions and have typically taped out the thirds on bass chords.
    I think a lot of box players do some of this, though some box traditions don't use much left hand playing.
    I'll fill in with the right hand as needed when lilting major or minor.

    Pretty much the way I think about things on the mandolin, minus the tape.

    Mick
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    For what it may be worth, and maybe that's not a lot, I also play button accordions and have typically taped out the thirds on bass chords.
    I think a lot of box players do some of this, though some box traditions don't use much left hand playing.
    I'll fill in with the right hand as needed when lilting major or minor.

    Pretty much the way I think about things on the mandolin, minus the tape.

    Mick
    Except some Finns and Finnish Americans. They will have the bass modified to do minors. At least Am and Em. Although there are less around that know how and are willing to do it.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    This is not a theoretical point of view as much as it is a practical response. A tempered tuning is just that, a tuning or adjustment to fit the situation. The worst possible situation is where the instrument can't adjust. Pianos are hard to tune and electric pianos, the ones without overtones, are the worst.
    Guitars and any string instrument, not just mandolins, can adjust to the harmonic situation. (But understand what your 'electronic tuner' is doing).


    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    I can see why that might be the case from a theoretical point of view, but I've rarely met another fiddler who (like me) dislikes playing with piano. Personally, I've always found tuning an issue when playing fiddle with piano, and I think this is why - most folk accordionists I've met tend to use their musette coupler a lot, which subdues the 'tempered' sound even though theirinstrument is tuned that way. In e.g. a traditional Scottish Dance band the fiddle usually gets swamped by accordion sound, so it's not negotiable - you have to go with the accordion tuning or the fiddler sound like the one who's 'out'.

    Does anyone make 'folk' mandos or guitars with the tuning biased towards natural scales in the 'folk' keys? I guess it should be possible, and how many mandolinists do we know who regularly play in keys on the circle of 5ths other than Bb going clockwise round to E? and related keys?)?
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    A tempered tuning is just that, a tuning or adjustment to fit the situation.
    mandolins (and guitars) are tuned to the equally tempered tuning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

    anybody who has ever tried to tune a guitar is painfully aware that this tuning
    is out-of-tune in every key, sometimes severely. (it is not quite
    as obviously in-your-face bad for mandolins)

    so people who have good music taste and who love the beauty of pure 3rds, 4ths and 5ths
    are quite justified to be upset when mandolin (and guitar) players barge in with their
    out-of-tune equal-tempered 3rds (5ths are not as bad on mandolins).

    just saying.

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    Which "Celtic music accompaniment book"?
    I deliberately didn't give the title, Roger, so we could discuss the general concept rather than the book - but I better say it's not your book I might be misquoting

  9. #32
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    For what it may be worth, and maybe that's not a lot, I also play button accordions and have typically taped out the thirds on bass chords.
    I think a lot of box players do some of this, though some box traditions don't use much left hand playing.
    I'll fill in with the right hand as needed when lilting major or minor.

    Pretty much the way I think about things on the mandolin, minus the tape.

    Mick
    Muy coolioso, Eric.
    Many G/C tuned boxes already have the Am bass chord, which I tend to enjoy on those.
    Tuning a G# reed down for an Em chord won't be a tricky thing for box fettler if so desired.
    You're right, not a lot of folks around tuning boxes in the US, but a helpful few who have helped me, up in New York State, Connecticut and certainly here in Texas.
    My guess in CA as well.

    I play a few 'Finnish' tunes, or I suppose they are.
    Am / C is pretty straightforward to find your fingers around on the mandolin, too.

    The Petri Hakala & Markku Lepistö stuff, for instance, is totally great.

    Mando and button box are a pretty natural musical fit that I'm sure a lot of other folks are digging into as well.

    It's gotten some nods here but worthy of a whole lot more.

    Mick
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  11. #33
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    I'm sure there are others that can describe how to tune a guitar for specific keys and modes better than me. But I start with an electronic tuner for the basics, do the 'harmonic thing' with adjacent strings and then play something like barre chords for I iii IV V. And then re-tune some notes in the third position (5th - 7th fret area). All focused on a specific tune's mode. (I do this for mandola and mandolin too).

    Is it not ironic that electronic tuners are set up for Equal Temperament?
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    and how many mandolinists do we know who regularly play in keys on the circle of 5ths other than Bb going clockwise round to E? and related keys?)?
    Here's the deal. Once I know the double stops and chords in a closed form, I don't care what key I am in. I just remember that, from where ever my index finger is, here is the I chord, here is the IV chord, here is the V7 chord what ever. I learn the chord shapes and positions relative to my index finger. This means I can play accompaniment in any key. It is often the case I don't know what key I am in.

    So if the vocalist wants to move it down a half step for her voice, I can usually accommodate it.

    Melodies and tunes is a different matter of course, but I have often had to move up or down a fret or so with the melody to accommodate someone. It takes a bit to get that melody into closed form, but once there it can be placed in any key as well.

    Many years ago I set it as personal project, to get all the tunes I play into a closed form. Well, it didn't last long. But its a good dream.
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Is it not ironic that electronic tuners are set up for Equal Temperament?
    FWIW, there are some that can operate in other temperaments and "sweetenings." When my Significant Other tunes her fiddle, she has the tuner set for perfect 5ths across the strings.

    So theoretically I'm out of tune with her open G, D, and E strings (only our open 440 Hz A strings match). Somehow it still works okay when we play tunes together with my 12TET mandolin. That is, unless I'm doing something like using a full 3-note C chord in a Dmix tune like "The Choice Wife" and she's instinctively hitting a slightly sharp "Piper's C." So I've learned not to do that. Somehow the C note alone on mandolin doesn't clash too much, but adding the 12TET third really brings out the disparity.

    So fiddle and and mandolin can play tunes together and have fun. Good thing, otherwise a heck of a lot of Americana music wouldn't be possible!

    I have to say though, that there is something special that happens when I play my "Irish flute" (conical bore, 19th Century design) along with her fiddle. It's a diatonic instrument, not 12TET, and each note pitch can be subtly adjusted with embouchure whether I'm thinking about it or not. When it's a good day and we're both on our game, the two instruments blend so well that it almost sounds like a single instrument as we subconsciously match each others' intonation.

    This is why string quartets are so revered in Classical music; they're not totally locked into 12TET. That said, I still play my mandolin because it does things a flute can't do.

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    JeffD,

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.

    Nice to meet you:


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