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Thread: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

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    Default How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    I'm reading an interesting Celtic music accompaniment method book which appears to espouse (I haven't finished yet) using 'power chords' (root 5th octave) and the like which omit the 3rd so are not defined as 'minor' or 'major'. I can see this might be handy on several fronts (like not playing a harmonically inappropriate chord when you know the root notes that should work but haven't spotted where it's going), and it seemed to work for well at times for e.g. Steeleye Span. Does this 'less harmonically defined' approach work well (or well enough) for other kinds of music too - what do you think?

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Let me answer more generally. I am a very "do what you can" player. I see no reason to be responsible for every damn note in that chord. That is what guitar players are for.

    Especially if the chord transitions are quick, one only has to imply the chord, and move along.

    Nobody has ever criticized me for not getting all the notes in that one chord.

    In traditional western music the seventh (minor seventh actually) of the five chord is significant. In those cases if that 7th note is not in the melody, adding the seventh note as a harmony is often all that is needed. We have all heard enough western music to think we are hearing all the notes of that chord.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    No expert here but... I read this as a mix of several thoughts, which makes the reason behind the question unclear.

    - Some Celtic music is known to be "modal", with at least some passages being neither major nor minor.

    - Some rock music, and some (much?) Gregorian chant, is based on "power-5" chords, w/ no third, although I suspect that major or minor thirds show up in the vocals or whatever.

    - Playing all notes of a chord (now assuming more standard Western music: pop, rock, roots, even classical) is far from a requirement for ANY instrument. Heck, just look at some piano arrangements and you'd see that the backing tones can be exceedingly sparse, even while the underlying tonality persists in the listener's perception.

    So I'd guess that most have played 3rd-less chords at sometime or other, just maybe not often or intentionally, which probabaly doesn't answer the question.

    BTW, jazz players are more likely to leave out the 5th and/or the root, making sure to get the major/minor tonality, plus some or all extensions. As in: "That's what the bass player is for."
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    I play more guitar backing than mandolin when it comes to Irish music (I'm slightly ashamed to say on this forum ), so maybe what I write here is from more of a "guitaristic" perspective, but I think the same theory applies to mandolin family instruments.

    If I'm in a session and providing "backing" and someone looks at me and shouts out a key just before they change tune, I'll always start with a chord with only 1's and 5's in, that way whatever mode of that key is being played it won't sound wrong, (or that wrong if the tune doesn't start on the 1 chord). If the tune is one I'm familiar with, then I may play some more harmonically interesting chords as the tune progresses. If I'm not familiar with the tune, I'll keep it very simple harmonically until I have more of an understanding of how the tune goes. As an aside, when someone is leading a set of tunes and tries to shout out a key, their ability to speak is often limited to a grunt, and it can be very hard to tell whether they are saying G or D...

    I wouldn't say never play the third, but often chords with no third seem to sound more "celtic" or have an open quality. Each tune is different and people's individual tastes can vary when it comes to chords/harmony though. I think that mixolydian tunes benefit by not playing the third although major tunes can too. To my ear at least, minor tunes sound good with a minor chord and its flattened third.

    Not playing the third doesn't mean just play "power" chords though. Suspended chords can open up a whole new world. These are chords that replace the third with either a second (sus 2) or fourth (sus 4). You can start to include short melodic lines by switching between the 2, 3 and 4 as an example of their use. Suspended chords seem to be interchangeable e.g. the notes C G and D together either make a C sus 2 chord or a G sus 4 chord. I don't know enough about music theory to explain this, but I do know that this means that these chords can sort of work for either the 1 or 4 chord in a tune in G major, or by subtly changing one note at a time between G5, Gsus4 to C can provide good voice leading which maybe is something that doesn't get discussed that often in these styles of music

    Another example of this in say A major, if you are playing an A maj chord (with a third) and a D chord is needed, try playing an A sus 4 rather than completely changing shape to a D chord, that is usually easier and again provides good voice leading. A sus 4 is the notes A D E which is also a D sus 2.
    Last edited by Paul Cowham; Mar-28-2022 at 6:32pm.

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    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    I don't think it works particularly well for Finnish (or Finnish American) music. But have it used in other Nordic musics (more Swedish than others).

    Also doesn't seem to work in what we call Upper Midwest Old-Time music, which is a mixture of Scandinavian, German, Irish, French-Canadian, Native and a few other musics. These musics seem to be drawn to either major or minor. Even if it seems out of place to modern listeners.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    I'm not the best w/ chord theory and whatnot (when it comes to trad, I'm mainly playing the fiddle), but I would say that that I agree with the idea of not always playing the 3rd or all notes of the chord. Often 2 string/partial chords and/or passing chords with or without a 3rd string drone or such is often an appropriate approach but there's spots where a 3rd will fit, depending on the tune. That said, since chording instruments are essentially superfluous to the tradition, it's often left to interpretation of the particular tune. It's a tricky thing since trad doesn't follow the "rules" of western music theory. Often less is more and a more melodic approach is usually the most symbiotic. Hopefully that's not too murky a reply! 2 hrs of sleep in a 24 hr. shift doesn't do me good for trying to analyze music structure!

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Paul is absolutely right about the question.

    I've recently 'gone back' to learning guitar, I still play a ton of mandolin and violin, but now the need is to understand MUSIC THEORY enough to make better choices.

    A melody player does not have to deal with this issue.

    For a guitar player the issue is very important and this is challenging. The usual 'out of the box' or 'cowboy chords' don't sound good in modal music. Moreover, the book wise 'chord chart' played that way sounds awful. And since nobody knows anything about why it does not work, we are stuck again. We are at the mercy of the ignorance, or talent of the accompanist. It is the reason why guitar players are often banned from sessions.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    I play in a duo with a guitar player who plays pretty much full chords, and we play everything from modern rock to country and bluegrass. I probably play 'fifth' or power chords 80% of the time, adding the 3rd the other 20% of the time based on the feel of the song, and usually only for a minor chord. I developed this style due to a hand injury, but it seems to work very well- We get a lot of compliments and no complaints.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Max, you prbly know this - many Irish-style accordions have switches to eliminate 3rds in the bass. Many folks, who own accordions without the switches, eliminate the 3rds by taping them off.

    When playing guitar in Irish style, I prefer using DADGAD tuning.

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    For a guitar player the issue is very important and this is challenging. The usual 'out of the box' or 'cowboy chords' don't sound good in modal music. Moreover, the book wise 'chord chart' played that way sounds awful. And since nobody knows anything about why it does not work, we are stuck again. We are at the mercy of the ignorance, or talent of the accompanist. It is the reason why guitar players are often banned from sessions.
    Speaking for myself, I prefer my Irish trad served guitar-less. Mainly for this reason.

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Max, you prbly know this - many Irish-style accordions have switches to eliminate 3rds in the bass. Many folks, who own accordions without the switches, eliminate the 3rds by taping them off..
    Interesting, I didn't know that - my experience of squeezeboxes has mostly either been melodeons playing English trad music, or sitting alongside 'Scottish Pianos' in dance bands - the biggest 4 or even 5 voice accordions with standard left hand chords and Scottish musette tuning (ie very wide, think Jimmy Shand). Some of the '2nd box' players (ie the accompanying accordionist, not the one that playes the tune) fill up the entire background with 5 and 6 finger chords - and sometimes here'sa piano as well. To say the sound of that amplified is dense is an understatement. It's like a wall of accordion, an environment not ideally suited to those who consider any kind of chordal accompaniment to be de trop...

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    omit the 3rd so are not defined as 'minor' or 'major'
    there is two practical reasons to omit 3rds from chord playing:

    1) fiddlers, fluters and pipers may want to play a just-intonation 3rd and will resent you pulling them into the "out-of-tune-in-every-key" equal-tempered 3rd.

    2) in many tunes, fiddlers, fluters and pipers play the "piper's C" and "piper's F" (which are between C and C# and between F and F#). an equal-tempered 3rd will collide with that and distort the tunes.

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Let me answer more generally. I am a very "do what you can" player. I see no reason to be responsible for every damn note in that chord. That is what guitar players are for.

    Especially if the chord transitions are quick, one only has to imply the chord, and move along.

    Nobody has ever criticized me for not getting all the notes in that one chord.

    In traditional western music the seventh (minor seventh actually) of the five chord is significant. In those cases if that 7th note is not in the melody, adding the seventh note as a harmony is often all that is needed. We have all heard enough western music to think we are hearing all the notes of that chord.
    This, exactly. I'm a beginner mando player but have been gigging on keyboards & guitars since about 1980. Frankly, I think of rhythm mandolin as more of a percussion instrument than a harmonic one. Kinda covering both bases, but only partly. The mando leaves out a lot of the rhythm on purpose: it focuses on what it does best, like the backbeat. Likewise, it can leave out a LOT of harmonic content and focus on whatever's needed. Even roots are generally unnecessary in mando rhythm chords! Personally, and depending on the style, I would tend to leave out root and five and focus on 3 and 7, especially 7. But there are no rules, just do whatever sounds good.

    I play in an acoustic duo with a friend who's a marvel on violin and mando. When I finally finished building my mando kit, the next time we got together I asked him about his "go-to" voicings. He says he often plays 3 note chords, since 3 good ones is way better than 4 sloppy ones. I asked about the "chop" chord. He said his hands had a hard time with that, plus he learned from a guy with tiny hands who couldn't reach it at all, said instead he uses 4523 to play a G (which is all 3rds and 7ths.)

    EdHanrahan mentions that jazzers tend to focus on 3 and 7 as well. Not only does this leave the root for the bass player (or not), it leaves out the 5, which the melody player then has the flexibility to flat or sharp, which is very common.

    Mandocello8 has a great point about thirds and intonation. I've never played in groups where the chromatic folks didn't own the playing field.

    And on mando, I'm still learning my go-to voicings and have yet to play along with anything other than my own backing tracks. So, I'm speaking as a bandmate, not a mando player.

    As with anything, this can be answered on 5 levels, from the simplest ("Yes!") to more nuanced. I'll stick to level 2 for now. But the bottom line is, it depends on context.

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    A chord is three or more single pitches heard simultaneously.
    A dyad is two single pitches heard simultaneously.
    A power chord is a dyad and not a chord.

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Just to add a little bit.

    If some kind of percussive chop is called for (being its bluegrass) I have no problem leaving notes out, heck if I can do the chop with a two note double stop I am there. Everyone is listening to the fiddle break or guitar break anyway. My goal in such a situation is very un-professional, I strive to not screw it up.

    And, here is the kicker, I have been complimented more than a few times after a show or a jam, for my reliable supportive but not in the way chopping.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I strive to not screw it up.
    I'd call that totally professional. I can say that as an experienced professional (at something other than music.)

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocello8 View Post
    there is two practical reasons to omit 3rds from chord playing:

    1) fiddlers, fluters and pipers may want to play a just-intonation 3rd and will resent you pulling them into the "out-of-tune-in-every-key" equal-tempered 3rd.

    2) in many tunes, fiddlers, fluters and pipers play the "piper's C" and "piper's F" (which are between C and C# and between F and F#). an equal-tempered 3rd will collide with that and distort the tunes.
    I can see why that might be the case from a theoretical point of view, but I've rarely met another fiddler who (like me) dislikes playing with piano. Personally, I've always found tuning an issue when playing fiddle with piano, and I think this is why - most folk accordionists I've met tend to use their musette coupler a lot, which subdues the 'tempered' sound even though theirinstrument is tuned that way. In e.g. a traditional Scottish Dance band the fiddle usually gets swamped by accordion sound, so it's not negotiable - you have to go with the accordion tuning or the fiddler sound like the one who's 'out'.

    Does anyone make 'folk' mandos or guitars with the tuning biased towards natural scales in the 'folk' keys? I guess it should be possible, and how many mandolinists do we know who regularly play in keys on the circle of 5ths other than Bb going clockwise round to E? and related keys?)?

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Everybody. We all do it. Don't lie, people! Everybody does it.

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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhillipeTaylor View Post
    Everybody. We all do it. Don't lie, people! Everybody does it.
    Nope.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Nope.
    This is the IRISH/CELTIC forum, Bill. Not the bluegrass forum...

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Outside of bluegrass, the role of the mandolin is less well defined. So many sessions the the guitar or the bouzouki has the rhythm covered beautifully, and they don't need me to clutter it up.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Outside of bluegrass, the role of the mandolin is less well defined. So many sessions the the guitar or the bouzouki has the rhythm covered beautifully, and they don't need me to clutter it up.
    Sure... but I pretty sure you know that backing in Celtic/Irish music isn't really a "rhythm" job, since the tune has the rhythm built in. It's more for counterpoint, as many on this site have said, and taught me . So... no one should really be "Alligatoring" their way through the song anyway...

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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhillipeTaylor View Post
    This is the IRISH/CELTIC forum, Bill. Not the bluegrass forum...
    That’s a response with a lot of built in bias. And if you knew anything about bluegrass, you’d know it’s full of doublestops.
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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    That’s a response with a lot of built in bias. And if you knew anything about bluegrass, you’d know it’s full of doublestops.
    I was being playful, not seriously debating anything you said. Sorry, tone is often lost in writing.

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    Default Re: How many of you play 3rd-less chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    I'm reading an interesting Celtic music accompaniment method book which appears to espouse (I haven't finished yet) using 'power chords' (root 5th octave) and the like which omit the 3rd so are not defined as 'minor' or 'major'. I can see this might be handy on several fronts (like not playing a harmonically inappropriate chord when you know the root notes that should work but haven't spotted where it's going), and it seemed to work for well at times for e.g. Steeleye Span. Does this 'less harmonically defined' approach work well (or well enough) for other kinds of music too - what do you think?
    Which "Celtic music accompaniment book"?

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