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Thread: RECOVERED: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

  1. #1
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    Default RECOVERED: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Hello Mandolin Cafe members,

    Last August I purchased a 1920’s Gibson F4 mandolin, serial number 66824, from Drum & Strum, a music store in Warrenton Virginia. It arrived safe and sound and, besides worn frets, the instrument was in great shape and sounded really good. I immediately added it to my Clarion Instrument insurance policy.

    In October I decided to get the frets replaced so I shipped it to Danny Roberts in Tennessee to get the work done, as I had used Danny before on new frets for another mandolin and he did a great job. The work was completed and the mandolin was shipped back to me, via UPS, but it was never delivered.

    The tracking showed it left Murfreesboro and arrived at its first stop in Nashville but then it did not move. After 3 days of no movement I contacted my Clarion insurance Rep who suggested I give it a week and then file a UPS claim to get them motivated to find it, which is what I did. Once I filed the UPS claim the status changed to under investigation. After 1 month UPS closed the claim and essentially said the package was lost. Both Danny and I were totally shocked when this happened.

    My options from Clarion were to wait to see if the mandolin was found or the other option was to file a insurance loss claim. If I filed a loss claim, Clarion would send me a check for the insured value of the mandolin, less my deductible, and if the mandolin was recovered they would own it but I could purchase it back from them for the same amount that I was reimbursed. I chose to file a loss claim, get my money, and let Clarion worry about finding the mandolin.

    All the while in this ordeal I thought Clarion was actively working with UPS and that they were going to collectively find the mandolin. When I inquired with Clarion in mid January of the status, I was told that there was nothing new. After that call I decided to move on and, since then, I purchased a 1922 Gibson F4 mandolin that was for sale on the Cafe.

    At the time that UPS closed the claim, the shipper notified me that UPS was authorizing them to reimburse me $100 for the lost package, all I had to do was send them a receipt showing the value of the package. I informed Clarion of this and they told me that was standard UPS procedure and that the check needed to be made out and sent to them since they now owned the mandolin. I did all of that and just last week Clarion informed me that they had finally received the $100 check from UPS.

    I don’t know if there is a stolen instrument database system that vintage instrument stores keep, but if there is please let me know so this Gibson F4 mandolin, serial number 66824, can be added to that list. If it ever shows up please contact me or Clarion insurance for directions on how to proceed, as Clarion now owns the mandolin, and I still have the option of buying it back from them if it’s recovered.

    Also, as an aside, if anyone is considering buying instrument insurance for their instruments, I highly recommend it. I sure am glad that I had it.

    Thanks
    Alan Epstein

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    Last edited by Mandolin Cafe; Mar-28-2022 at 10:30am.

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    It's awful that this was stolen, especially while in the hands of UPS, but I'm very glad you've had sufficient resolution to this that you have been able to move on. This is a great thread for people wondering about the value of good musical instrument insurance.
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    It may be that a photo of the back is the best 'fingerprint' for identifying a stolen instrument - perhaps years from now when the serial number/label may be removed. There are enough sleuths here on the Cafe that anything is possible. And the grain of the back is unique to each instrument. I suppose the same is true for the front grain and sunburst, but it would take a much clearer photo than for the back.
    Last edited by BradKlein; Mar-28-2022 at 11:59am.
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Thank you for the real life reason for considering insurance.

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    That makes me very angry. Unfortunately, it's too early here to start drinking.

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    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Question. Was it a business you bought it from? Was it a US state to US state? Keep on them. They have a tendency of pulling this all the time. Washing there hands of these issues. Dont give up.

    Also filed a stolen goods with your police dept. that way it can be recovered if its found.

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Is it stolen? My son used to work in a UPS distribution facility and he would tell tales of boxes that were tossed from truck to truck, packages that fell off of carts and ones that were run over by pallet jacks and fork lifts. They were incentivized on how fast they scanned and moved items.
    There's a chance it was damaged and/or destroyed and nobody on the distribution floor wanted to be held accountable for it.
    On a different level, we recently received a FedEx box back to our house that it appears the label came off. It was sent to our daughter, who had recently moved out of state and among other things, it had some bills, bank statements in it. It came back to our house, addressed to her with a stamp saying "Label Missing".
    Unfortunately, there is always a small risk involved in using any shipping company.
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    “It may be that a photo of the back is the best 'fingerprint' for identifying a stolen instrument”

    Brad - That’s a great idea. I’ve reached out to Drum & Strum, the store where I purchased the mandolin, to see if they still had the pictures from their website listing. Stay tuned.
    Alan

  11. #9

    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Epstein View Post
    “It may be that a photo of the back is the best 'fingerprint' for identifying a stolen instrument”

    Brad - That’s a great idea. I’ve reached out to Drum & Strum, the store where I purchased the mandolin, to see if they still had the pictures from their website listing. Stay tuned.
    Alan
    Charles Johnson and I had this conversation one day. It’s basically as good as any fingerprint. No two backs are alike.
    "your posts ... very VERY opinionated ...basing your opinion/recommendations ... pot calling ...kettle... black...sarcasm...comment ...unwarranted...unnecessary...."

  12. #10
    Mandolingerer Bazz Jass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Epstein View Post
    “It may be that a photo of the back is the best 'fingerprint' for identifying a stolen instrument”

    Brad - That’s a great idea. I’ve reached out to Drum & Strum, the store where I purchased the mandolin, to see if they still had the pictures from their website listing. Stay tuned.
    Alan
    Terrible to hear this If it's helpful for photos, Drum & Strum also listed it on Reverb. I kept the listing in my favorites at the time.

    https://reverb.com/item/38854693-gib...show_sold=true
    Last edited by Bazz Jass; Mar-28-2022 at 4:41pm.

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    This sad event reminds me of an article I wrote 25 years ago about the USPS dead letter office in St. Paul, which collected lost postal items from the entire eastern US. It was an enormous warehouse with gigantic bins full of books and CDs, piles of clothing and other merchandise, uncountable purses and wallets that had been stolen and then dumped into mail collection boxes, and even four cartons of lost cremation ashes – all stuff that was untraceable. They held auctions monthly to get rid of it all. (They did not auction off the ashes.)

    UPS and FedEx sell off their lost items at auction, as well.

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Quote Originally Posted by slimt View Post
    Question. Was it a business you bought it from? Was it a US state to US state? Keep on them. They have a tendency of pulling this all the time. Washing there hands of these issues.
    I don't wish to be rude or hurtful. But did you read the OP? The answers to both questions are in the first two paragraphs. The rest of this is also baffling. The owner has been through enough.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    I don't wish to be rude or hurtful. But did you read the OP? The answers to both questions are in the first two paragraphs. The rest of this is also baffling. The owner has been through enough.
    Im sure he has been through enough. And ya I noticed in the first two. Trying to help. Not create a issue.

    I hope it is recovered.
    Last edited by slimt; Mar-28-2022 at 5:55pm.

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Me too. Me too. But it does sound like it's gone.

    The story of financial resolution is inspiring, though. And it's giving me the impetus to get going and insure my instruments, now that I have some worthy ones. I did get one stolen nearly 15 years ago - uninsured - and the thought of that still stings. It was a horror story without a happy ending, and I've related it hereabout before. Searching for it led me to some unexpected positive plotlines, including joining up here (jury is still out on that ) but not the main one. Hope a word to the wise is sufficient, this time.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  18. #15
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Me too. Me too. But it does sound like it's gone.

    The story of financial resolution is inspiring, though. And it's giving me the impetus to get going and insure my instruments, now that I have some worthy ones. I did get one stolen nearly 15 years ago - uninsured - and the thought of that still stings. It was a horror story without a happy ending, and I've related it hereabout before. Searching for it led me to some unexpected positive plotlines, including joining up here (jury is still out on that ) but not the main one.
    Hopefully on the bright side. And the reason I asked. Is if it was a business to a customer. That should be fully insured. If it was a private sale. There is a limit on the amount.

    Not unless we have a different set of rules up here. Usually UPS is pretty tight in the Hubs.

  19. #16
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Quote Originally Posted by slimt View Post
    Hopefully on the bright side. And the reason I asked. Is if it was a business to a customer. That should be fully insured. If it was a private sale. There is a limit on the amount.

    Not unless we have a different set of rules up here. Usually UPS is pretty tight in the Hubs.
    In this case, the mandolin was being shipped from a repairman: " In October I decided to get the frets replaced so I shipped it to Danny Roberts in Tennessee to get the work done, as I had used Danny before on new frets for another mandolin and he did a great job. The work was completed and the mandolin was shipped back to me, via UPS, but it was never delivered."

    Not from the business he bought the mandolin from. So that might make a difference? In any rate, it was his personal insurance provider - Clarion - who paid out, not UPS. UPS only reimbursed $100 for the shipping.

    That's my understanding anyway.

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazz Jass View Post
    Terrible to hear this If it's helpful for photos, Drum & Strum also listed it on Reverb. I kept the listing in my favorites at the time.

    https://reverb.com/item/38854693-gib...show_sold=true
    If that link was indeed the same mandolin then these are the pictures of the instrument. By the way, we have identified instruments with the grain and the scars before. This is not new.

    If the original poster could identify the Reverb listing as the correct mandolin I'll leave these up. If not I will remove them.
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  23. #18

    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Sorry to hear it. I would make the distinction between lost and stolen. It is definitely lost. It could also be stolen, IMHO.

    Sometimes things get lost in the mail for months and just show up one day at your door with no explanation. My buddy was a major eBay seller and he would have things that were sent to the wrong address in Europe (mailed from the USA,) lost for months, insurance claim paid, and again one day it showed up, back in the USA, and returned to him. My own similar experience, just the past year I had an amp I was expecting get lost in the mail, same deal -- just showed up at my porch 6 months later with no explanation.

    I would agree with the others that sometimes things get damaged for whatever reason. Things also lose labels, again as previously stated -- I have things like that returned to the sender, more than once. Another thing that happens is that labels get wet and smeared where they can't be read -- again, sometimes those get returned to sender. So, there is hope, IMHO....

    OTOH, sometimes things DO get stolen. But, I would say a thief would not be able to "see through" the boxes and know what is worth stealing. An expensive mandolin box looks the same as a rice cooker box, for example. Having Danny Roberts return address would not tell a potential thief what is inside. However, a box labeled Collings would, for example. There are dishonest people that work for the major shippers, but that is rare, in my experience. My friend worked at the airport on the line for FedEx and said you work a 4 hour shift without a bathroom break and stay so busy that nobody can work more than 4 hours at a time. So, I'm not sure when someone would get the chance to steal something without being noticed. My friend did say, big heavy boxes that said Marshall Amps were stolen during his shift, so it is possible, but would take more than one person being dishonest. Believe it or not, they took the amp boxes to the tall fence surrounding the airport and "threw" the amps over the fence and someone was outside the fence with a car ready to pick it up. Of course, the reason this story is public knowledge is that the people involved were caught, fired, and arrested, so there's that. My friend also had eBay packages stolen from a front porch before the owner got home. Mostly this happened in large urban apartment buildings where a lot of people would be hanging around. Keep in mind, this is rare, out of 20,000 instruments shipped, it only happened a handful of times, so the track record overall is good.

    On a brighter note, the serial number can identify the instrument, even if it shows up for sale years later.....many people have found their long lost guitar on eBay show up for sale -- sometimes even 30+ years later!

    Good luck in finding it!
    Last edited by Jeff Mando; Mar-28-2022 at 7:53pm.

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    If that link was indeed the same mandolin then these are the pictures of the instrument. By the way, we have identified instruments with the grain and the scars before. This is not new.

    If the original poster could identify the Reverb listing as the correct mandolin I'll leave these up. If not I will remove them.
    Thanks Mike Edgerton, that is the correct mandolin.
    Alan Epstein

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  26. #20

    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    A few people have told me the are using an Apple’s air tag when shipping. Hidden in the case, these might prove useful in the event the package “disappears.”

    But as they say, hindsight is 20/20.
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  27. #21

    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Being slightly upbeat this morning, my guess is that the object, if stolen, probably has not been destroyed and maybe is even played. Versus crushed in shipping or stripped for parts.
    That it evaporated in, goodness, Nashville kinda leans me toward the theft scenario. Small, insured packages arriving in, say, Geneva, might be related to watches!
    The other upbeat note is that the rapid advance of easy image analysis means that photo of the back will be even more useful when this thing eventually surfaces somewhere.
    Some of my old cars do have value, but the only reason they’re insured is that they have to be registered to reside at my house. The mandolins as a group wouldn’t crest the house deductible.

  28. #22
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    First, thanks for the suggestion about photographing the back as a fingerprint.

    I am a big believer in instrument insurance. As I am not a professional musician who gets paid for playing, I found that special insurance on my four primary instruments is quite reasonable. I understand insurance is more expensive for professionals. My instruments are fully covered for accidents, loss, damage or theft. Really anything. Even if I were traveling internationally, they are covered. If I sat on an instrument, it would be covered, snatched from me in a park, covered. A chew toy for my dog, covered, although I'm trying to figure out if I would blame myself or the dog. (I'd blame me.) I have never needed to file a claim, but I feel more secure with the coverage. My normal home insurance would cover some things, but I have separate insurance for the violins and mandolins. For the violins, I had them fully appraised first. For the mandolins, I provided receipts. Of course, even with insurance, I am still every bit as careful with them all. No insurance check can ever truly replace a singular treasure.

    Now, I do have some nice photos of all the instruments, but I need to make sure I have back "fingerprint" photos of each one. What a great idea!

    And, thanks for sharing the story of the missing instrument and all the advice that followed.
    ---
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    I just heard from the folks at Drum n Strum and they sent me the link to the original post of the mandolin when it was for sale on their website.
    https://drumnstrum.com/product/1922-...-f-4-mandolin/

    Thanks for all the interest everyone.
    Alan

  30. #24
    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Yes! This Cheshire Cat should make it easy to identify. See it?

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    Default Re: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

    Should it be seen either in person or online, what is the best course of action?

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