RECOVERED: Stolen Gibson F-4 Mandolin Serial #66824

[Jeff Mando]

Should it be seen either in person or online, what is the best course of action?

My 2 cents from working at a vintage guitar shop. IF you have a police report -- no matter how old -- that has your serial number, legally the instrument is yours. The police show up, grab the instrument, hand it to you and the store owner or consignor has no say in the matter, even if the instrument has been resold many times over the years. In other words, once an instrument is "stolen" it doesn't become "unstolen" no matter the length of time or how many times it has been sold. Usually, filing a police report involves a break-in, either your house, car, or if an instrument was stolen at a gig.

In my experience, ALL OTHER forms of proof of identification fall into more of a gray area. Even if you have a receipt, photos of youself and the instrument, etc. -- it is still open or discussion as to who owns it, now. Even when the owner is positive the instrument is theirs, without a police report, store is not obligated to surrender the instrument. At the discretion of the store owner, consignor, owner, etc., if you believe the person has a right to get it back, the store may offer to sell it at cost to the original owner, if he agrees. Many people get indignant at this suggestion and threaten lawsuits, etc,, but they have no legal standing, in my experience.

I'm not sure where a lost instrument with a paid insurance claim falls into this scenario, legally.

Again, I hope it just shows up at your door one of these days.

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually legally it belongs to the insurance company not to the OP.

[journeybear]

But then the OP would be able to buy it from the insurance company, matching their payout, as he stated in the OP.

I have a hunch that in cases like this the person who lost the instrument would be more highly motivated to reacquire the instrument than the insurance company. Insurance is based on numbers, with the main premise being that premiums paid by customers offset payouts to customers, and by a wide margin. So the company will call it a day after the customer agrees to a settlement, unless the case falls into the lap of a claims adjuster who is gung-ho.

What I'm wondering about, is whether there's a statute of limitations at play in all this. Even though Jeff says a stolen instrument doesn't become "unstolen," even after it changes hands, isn't the statute of limitations for theft seven years? Wouldn't the return of a discovered stolen instrument depend on the willingness of the current owner?

It's coming up to 15 years since my F-12 was stolen, and though I've moved on - replaced it and pretty much stopped looking for it - if it miraculously appears, would ai be able to claim it? Yes, there is a police report which includes the serial number. The police did very little at the time, and I assume it's long gone. But there is that report in a file cabinet ... somewhere ...

[Bazz Jass]

While the OP has the option to buy the mandolin back if ever recovered, he may decide the one he subsequently bought from a fellow forum member is fine enough - maybe even better.

[Jeff Mando]

But then the OP would be able to buy it from the insurance company, matching their payout, as he stated in the OP.

I have a hunch that in cases like this the person who lost the instrument would be more highly motivated to reacquire the instrument than the insurance company

I'm reminded of a very infamous case in the last few years where Roman Totenberg, violinist and music professor and father of Nina Totenberg, had his Stradivarius violin stolen in the 70's, suspected by a former student, but never proven. Long, long story, but to summarize -- Totenberg bought the instrument in the 1940's for $14.000 (sounds cheap today, but back then was twice what most people's houses cost.) He used it professionally for 30 years before it was stolen. It was insured for $100,000 in the 70's and that is what the insurance company paid Totenberg. It was not seen for 40 years. The person who stole it still had it, died of cancer recently and left a note for his wife explaining that he stole it and that it was valuable. She contacted the authorities and it was returned to the insurance company. The insurance company contacted Totenberg's daughters, since Totenberg was dead by now and offered it to them for the original payout price of $100,000, even though by now it was worth millions of $$$. The sisters were happy to buy back their father's violin.

[journeybear]

Nothing wrong with doing the right thing.

[journeybear]

While we're here, is Clarion the best insurance company for instruments? Why or why not? Who else? I've seen Heritage and Anderson mentioned. While I do play out, I don't know if I would qualify as a professional musician - I don't make that much money from performing, and have no records anyway. And I do not have homeowner's insurance - I rent. Thanks.

[Jeff Mando]

Nothing wrong with doing the right thing.

I can't really imagine an insurance company (especially) or individual just "giving away" millions of dollars. I'm guessing they are legally bound to offer the policy holder first chance -- probably gambling on the fact that many people wouldn't be able to raise the $100,000.

[Mandolin Cafe]

Has it's own record in the Mandolin Archive now with the newest batch of images to be added as Dan's time permits. Google now returning it on searches for both locations which was part of the objective in communicating the theft.

[journeybear]

I can't really imagine an insurance company (especially) or individual just "giving away" millions of dollars. I'm guessing they are legally bound to offer the policy holder first chance -- probably gambling on the fact that many people wouldn't be able to raise the $100,000.

I was thinking more that the company returning the violin to the family was the right thing. And yes, for the same amount. It may have been entitled to sell it on the open market for far more. But as I said, I'm not sure how or even if a statute of limitations affects the resolution in a case like this. And I still don't know what the rights of the policyholder would be, once a case has been settled and a payout has been made, whether he/she still could make a claim.

Out of the tens of thousands of members here, there must be some who work in insurance and could set us straight.

[GMorgan]

While we're here, is Clarion the best insurance company for instruments? Why or why not? Who else? I've seen Heritage and Anderson mentioned. While I do play out, I don't know if I would qualify as a professional musician - I don't make that much money from performing, and have no records anyway. And I do not have homeowner's insurance - I rent. Thanks.

I have no idea if there is a best insurance company to engage, but since I already had had good luck with State Farm, I approached them with setting up separate policies for four of my instruments. I was able to insure them for what they were worth and the policies basically covered all contingencies. I did not find the cost at all prohibitive. With any luck, I will never have to make a claim, but I definitely feel better having the coverage.

[MikeEdgerton]

But then the OP would be able to buy it from the insurance company, matching their payout, as he stated in the OP.

Yes but the OP cannot claim it as his own if the police were to recover it as he no longer owns it. That's the point. Can he buy it from the insurance company? If they want to sell it to him but in reality they own it. I work for an insurance company. I really do understand how it works.

[jaycat]

While we're here, is Clarion the best insurance company for instruments? Why or why not? Who else? I've seen Heritage and Anderson mentioned. While I do play out, I don't know if I would qualify as a professional musician - I don't make that much money from performing, and have no records anyway. And I do not have homeowner's insurance - I rent. Thanks.

At the very least, I would look into renter's insurance. When I used to rent I had Liberty Mutual. Although I can't stand their stupid ads, they did right by me when I was broken into and my Guild D-25 was stolen. IIRC they gave me current replacement value, with which I was able to purchase a nice Taylor.

(Fortunately, the thieves were either too dumb, or in too much of a hurry, to take my Guild T-50, my pride and joy, or my 1915 Gibson mando!)

[Jeff Mando]

I second the renter's insurance. It is dirt cheap compared to homeowner's insurance because you are not insuring the dwelling and land, just the contents inside.

[journeybear]

Yes but the OP cannot claim it as his own if the police were to recover it as he no longer owns it. That's the point. Can he buy it from the insurance company? If they want to sell it to him but in reality they own it. I work for an insurance company. I really do understand how it works.

Ah - that's what I was looking for: expert intel from an experienced industry member. That aligns with what I'd thought, but that was just the best guess of an underinformed civilian. Thanks very much!

At the very least, I would look into renter's insurance. When I used to rent I had Liberty Mutual. Although I can't stand their stupid ads, they did right by me when I was broken into and my Guild D-25 was stolen. IIRC they gave me current replacement value, with which I was able to purchase a nice Taylor.

(Fortunately, the thieves were either too dumb, or in too much of a hurry, to take my Guild T-50, my pride and joy, or my 1915 Gibson mando!)

I second the renter's insurance. It is dirt cheap compared to homeowner's insurance because you are not insuring the dwelling and land, just the contents inside.

Thanks - sounds like it's definitely worth investigating, so to speak.

And jaycat - I'll bet anything in my case the thieves were interested in just the small stuff they took, like a Discman CD player, and grabbed the instrument because it was there. And I imagine they got as far as an abandoned lot nearby, looked inside the case, and had no idea what it was, so they left it. Or pawned it, though I called all the pawnshops. BTW, the cops didn't know what a mandolin was, either - and this was in a city that was around 25% Italian. (I don't think either of them were, though.) Telling them it was grand larceny (list price around $3000) and its theft being a career-ending loss didn't impress them, either. Nor did the video footage of the actual incident from the security cameras. All in all, it was a very disappointing event, to put it mildly.

So, yeah, time to check out insurance. Much, much better to be safe than sorry.

[Bazz Jass]

Has it's own record in the Mandolin Archive now with the newest batch of images to be added as Dan's time permits. Google now returning it on searches for both locations which was part of the objective in communicating the theft.

Are they taking submissions again? Or did they just make an exception with this one. I'd be keen to add my F4, but was told they weren't taking submissions. In light of this thread, it seems like it would be a good way to have a public record of the instrument. I bought mine from Carters, and their listings disappear forever once sold (I know because I book-marked the listing I bought from. When I returned to view it after buying, the bookmark came up "not found")

[Mandolin Cafe]

Are they taking submissions again? Or did they just make an exception with this one. I'd be keen to add my F4, but was told they weren't taking submissions. In light of this thread, it seems like it would be a good way to have a public record of the instrument. I bought mine from Carters, and their listings disappear forever once sold (I know because I book-marked the listing I bought from. When I returned to view it after buying, the bookmark came up "not found")

I host Dan's site and don't charge him, he performs the sysadmin work and some programming for the Cafe, so yes, it was an exception for a special circumstance for a friend (the owner of the stolen instrument) so it can be located if it gets into the right hands. If you want a permanent public record of your instrument, there's nothing to stop anyone from posting pictures of their instrument as a thread. Just give it a title that has meaning to the search engines: Brand, model, serial number, FON as example.

[Alan Epstein]

My lost 1922 Gibson F4 mandolin has been found, here is the story…

Last week I received an email correspondence, through my website, from a operations supervisor of a retailers distribution warehouse located in Indiana, Pennsylvania saying they had received a package that appears to have been from 2 years ago in their returns that they thought might be mine. They asked me if I was missing a package from Danny Roberts from that timeframe, if so what was in it and where did they want me to send it to if it was mine.

As you could imagine, I was in complete astonishment. I responded, copying my insurance representatives, explaining I was indeed missing a package from 2021 and it was a Gibson F4 mandolin that was lost by UPS, and, if ever found, was now owned by the insurance company as I had filed a loss claim and was no longer the owner. I included a link to this mandolin cafe post in my email. (That was really important)

We verified that it was, indeed, my mandolin in the box. I told the insurance reps that I wanted to buy the mandolin back from them so we determined that instead of having it shipped to them and then to me, the best thing to do was for me to drive the 468 miles to Indiana, Pa and pick it up and they would pay me mileage as that would be about the same cost as shipping it twice, and it would be much safer.

I made the drive and picked up the mandolin. I do not know anything about how it got there or how long it had been there. All I know is inside the box there was a repair tag on the handle of the mandolin case that had my name on it and the repair that was done. (That was really important) Here is a picture I took when I opened the case which makes me think the mandolin had been sitting there, or somewhere, undisturbed for over 2 years.

I’m back home now and I’m working out the details of owning the mandolin again. My next step, I was told by the insurers, is to take it to a repair person of my choice to access if there are any repairs that need to be made because of the 2 year sleep in the case. I’m no repairman, but the only thing I’ve noticed, so far, is the pickguard is breaking down a bit. Also it needs new strings and a setup. (Obviously)

One last story…In November of 1971, when I was a sophomore in college, my father brought me back to school after Thanksgiving break and he bought me my first mandolin (a $50 Harmony if my memory is correct) from a music store in the college town. Dad was born on November 28, 1922 and he passed away in 2014. Back in 2021 I was looking to buy an old Gibson F4 mandolin that was made around when Dad was born and I bought this one. I sent it away to Danny Roberts to get new frets, work was done, it was sent back, then UPS lost it and now, over 2 years later, it’s been found. But here is the amazing part of this story, I was a sophomore at IUP in Indiana, Pa in 1971 when Dad bought me that first mandolin.

I’m still trying to process all of this, but I do know that the spirit of the mandolin is real and the joy of making music is an amazing thing and I’m so grateful to be a part of it.

Thanks everyone.
Alan Epstein

[Bill McCall]

How wonderful. Congratulations.

[Randi Gormley]

Such a great update! Glad it finally came home to roost!

[Russ Jordan]

Great news, Alan!!

[Don Grieser]

Wow, Alan, what a story! So happy for you! Enjoy that F4.

[Sue Rieter]

A bit of a Christmas miracle

[Jan Skovajsa]

Fantastic! I'm happy for you.

[MikeEdgerton]

The worst part about this is that it appears to have simply been an error on the part of the shipping company and not a theft at all. Keep in mind the backlog of OS&D (for all you trucking people) that needs to be picked through and how much of this stuff probably ends up being sold in bulk. It is a miracle that it surfaced it really is.