Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish Trad

  1. #1

    Default Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish Trad

    Hi everyone--I play mandolin in an Irish trad group, and am also interested in playing more rhythm/backing role as well. I am looking into whether to acquire an octave mandolin, or a bouzhouki for that purpose.

    Are there any strong arguments for choosing to play an octave mandolin vs a bouzhouki? If you had to choose, which one would you play to give the best rhythm and texture as a backing instrument for Irish trad?

    Thanks for any insights!

  2. #2
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    5,293

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    Personally, I would make that decision based on one important parameter: Is there a guitar player in the session or band you'll be playing in? If there is, I'd choose a bouzouki because it typically has a thinner, janglier sound than an OM, with a chance to be heard alongside the guitar. Many OMs have a darker, warmer tone that is closer to the timbre of a guitar and is easily buried in the mix.

    I played in a performing duo a few years ago on mandolin with a guitar player, and a few times I tried to incorporate my OM just for a change. It didn't work without creating arrangements designed to keep the two instruments from stepping on each other. That was a lot of work, so I just went back to mandolin where the higher pitch balances perfectly with a guitar.

    If there isn't a guitar player present, then I think either option can work well. I'd probably go with an OM instead of a zouk, because I prefer that (typically) thicker tone to fill in the bass range of a group's instrumentation. But either could work.

  3. #3
    Tired & Cranky Monte Barnett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    140

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    I'd opt for an OM (truly a tenor mandola) strung & tuned in 8va (octave - like a bouzouki). The shorter scale of the OM, coupled with 8va tuning in the G & D courses lends to easier fingering for both accompaniment & melody, and gives it a different voice from the guitar. Even better if you place the fundamental string "on top" with the octave string following - it reduces some of the 12-string-guitar chime to keep the fundamental strong.

    The question of strings for octave tuning always comes up, but emando.com has the remedy. NFI - I just seem to keep placing orders experimenting with gauges & such.
    Monte

    Northfield F2S
    Weber Yellowstone Octave F

  4. #4

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    No ' h ' in bouzouki.

    Dave H
    Eastman 615 mandola
    2011 Weber Bitteroot A5
    2012 Weber Bitteroot F5
    Eastman MD 915V
    Gibson F9
    2016 Capek ' Bob ' standard scale tenor banjo
    Ibanez Artist 5 string
    2001 Paul Shippey oval hole

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    High Peak - UK
    Posts
    4,171

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hanson View Post
    No ' h ' in bouzouki.

    Dave H
    To be totally correct, it’s actually spelt “Μπουζούκι“.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ray(T) For This Useful Post:


  7. #6
    Registered User liestman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Conroe, Texas
    Posts
    431

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    I would say bouzouki if you only want to play accompaniment or octave mandolin if you want to mix it up with both accompaniment and melody.
    John Liestman -
    Eye new ewe wood lye kit!

  8. #7
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    To be totally correct, it’s actually spelt “Μπουζούκι“.
    Yup...but that's for the Greek instrument, not the Irish version.

    BTW, I only play the Greek version.

  9. #8
    Registered User Paul Cowham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    manchester uk
    Posts
    495

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    Apologies for my ignorance here, but I don't know the difference between an Irish bouzouki and an octave mandolin.

    My understanding is that the great late Alec Finn played the Greek bouzouki with great effect to Irish music, but most other Irish bouzouki players (e.g. Donal Lunny, Andy Irvine, Daoirí Farrell), play the Irish bouzouki, and I don't know the difference between that and an octave mandolin.

    My understanding is that the difference between the Greek bouzouki and the Irish bouzouki is that the Irish bouzouki has a flat back rather than a round back, and the string pairs are tuned in unison, but the Greek bouzouki has some string pairs tuned an octave apart a bit like a 12 string guitar. Also, the Irish bouzouki has 4 pairs of strings but the Greek one sometimes has 3 pairs of strings, as played by Alec Finn.

    Anyhow, be interesting to hear people's thoughts on this.
    Last edited by Paul Cowham; Apr-09-2022 at 7:36pm.

  10. #9
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ardnadam, Argyll, Scotland
    Posts
    2,280

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    The "Irish" bouzouki has a longer scale length than the octave mandolin (or octave mandola depending on which label you use and which part of the world you inhabit) and also generally has a deeper and larger body, giving a different, deeper tone. The longer scale length makes the bouzouki more common in accompanying tunes rather than playing melody, especially on jigs and reels and faster tunes, as the fingering can cause problems to many players. The octave suits both backing and melody with its shorter scale length.

    I particularly like my octaves for playing bagpipe tunes as the sustain is better than on mandolin and the tunes are still easy to finger. I play both bouzouki and octave. My comments are general observations only. You can see both bouzouki and octave on many of my postings on my YT channel - see the link below. Here is a link to the pipe tune The 72nd's Farewell to Aberdeen played on my own-build bouzouki and octave. You will see the stretch the left hand fingers need to play melodies on the bouzouki.

    https://youtu.be/4P9Qin7GQOs
    I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order. - Eric Morecambe

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheOldBores

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to John Kelly For This Useful Post:


  12. #10
    Registered User Paul Cowham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    manchester uk
    Posts
    495

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    Thanks for your explanation John, which makes a lot of sense. The instruments that you built sound great too, chapeau to you!

    Quick question, presumably an octave mandolin is tuned an octave down from a mandolin i.e. GDAE, although I'm aware that other tunings are used such as GDAD, ADAD etc. Is the bouzouki, or at least the "Irish" bouzouki, tuned similarly?

    Just off to a session now, happy days!

  13. #11
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ardnadam, Argyll, Scotland
    Posts
    2,280

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    Thanks for your response, Paul. You are right about the octave being tuned an octave lower than the mandolin. The bouzouki is mainly tuned to the same frequencies as the octave, though GDAD is also common and some players replace one each of the pairs of G and D courses with strings an octave higher. I stick to the GDAE for all my instruments as it avoids having to relearn chord sshapes or fingerings for tunes. To each his/her own.
    Isn't it great to get out to live sessions again!
    I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order. - Eric Morecambe

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheOldBores

  14. The following members say thank you to John Kelly for this post:


  15. #12
    Registered User Paul Cowham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    manchester uk
    Posts
    495

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    Thanks again John,
    This asks another technical point then, if the "Irish" bouzouki has a longer scale length than an octave mandolin but is basically tuned the same, then presumably it needs different gauge strings or it will have a different tension on the strings (or more likely a combination of these factors).

    I'm struggling to remember my A level physics now, but do vaguely recall there is an equation which explains all of this. A quick google search has found this link which has the equation https://www.school-for-champions.com...m#.YlSkpcjMI2w

    I did study maths (or math to our friends in North America ) many moons ago, and if my brain still works, then I think this shows that doubling the scale length means the tension will be reduced by a factor of 4, all other things being equal. This will be offset by using heavier strings.

    Presumably this means that heavier strings are used on a bouzouki? Do the strings generally have less tension on the bouzouki, which would impact on how the instruments feel to the player and therefore used to their best advantage?

    PS yes it is great to be able to go to sessions again. The pandemic has helped me to appreciate the importance of things like sessions which have formed a large part of my social life for the past 25 years or so. We had a great one last night
    Last edited by Paul Cowham; Apr-11-2022 at 6:33pm.

  16. #13

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    As stated above, it's going to depend on the make up of the musicians who you're playing with. OM gets lost if there's a lot of acoustic guitar sound. But it is a lot easier to play melodies on than bouzouki is.
    I will say, if you are playing in a session, some may complain about playing melodies on an octave mandolin. So you may be stuck playing chords anyways.

    Outside of Irish/Celtic/Greek folk music, where a bouzouki really fits in well, an octave mandolin is more flexible in other genres. Not saying that that's right or wrong, just how it is.
    Zachary Graft
    Celtic and Christian fiddle and mandolin music
    zacharygraft.com
    facebook.com/zacharygraftmusic
    youtube.com/c/zacharygraft

  17. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    446

    Default Re: Octave Mandolin or Bouzhouki for Backing Instrument in Irish

    Quote Originally Posted by dooleybear4 View Post
    I play mandolin ... I am looking into ... octave mandolin
    compliments on your choice of music instruments.

    with luck, you will discover that an octave mandolin (GDAE) is a "guitar and mandolin in one bottle" and you can bring one axe to gigs instead of two.

    but choose your OM carefully:

    some OMs sound more like guitars (and can be lost against other guitars),
    some OMs sound more like F5 mandolins and cut through all other instruments (and tend to not have that special mellow "irish bouzouki" sound that many find so attractive).

    choice of scale length is up to the individual player. if you play guitar, you will have no trouble handling a guitar-sized OM. (many people prefer shorter scale OMs).

    choice of tuning - GDAE/GDAD/in unison/in octaves - is secondary, any OM can be configured for either choice, depending on the mood of the player.

    one "must have" thing is an adjustable truss rod - compared to guitar, 8 strings vs 6 strings and slimmer neck increase chances of neck bending forward - something easily adjusted with a truss rod - or eventually unplayable if there is no truss rod. (a surprising number of octaves were built without truss rods, now available "pretty cheap", and now you know why).

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •