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Thread: How do you remember all those tunes?

  1. #26
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    LOL Yes indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Arrggh! Somewhere I saw a T-shirt with words that said "Free the Tarbolton Three!"
    I was going to make a t-shirt that said "The Red Haired Boy is Dead- Long Live the Heir" but with much restraint I opted for "No male patrons from Bluehill".

    Seriously, if it is possible. What are other sets that come to mind?
    Jack Mitchell's and John Ryan's polkas for sure...And what were the Lunasa sets?
    Last edited by DougC; Apr-15-2022 at 4:32pm.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  2. #27
    Registered User Bren's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Play with others at every opportunity.
    If opportunity doesn't present itself, go out and seek it.

    Tunes will embed themselves before you know it.
    Bren

  3. #28
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Some fiddlers I know write down the first two or three bars of a tune to help jog the memory. One had a number of books, depending on the style being played.

    Besides a lot of tune books, as well as sheet music in 3 ring binders, also have MobileSheet Pro on a tablet with a couple thousand tunes. Between those I should be able to find a tune. If I can remember the genre, and what type of setting it was in.

    And strangely enough, even though I have a few dozen Irish tune books, don't actually play the music. Like listening to it and enjoy it, but it would take 10 years of diligent work on my part to be able to show up at a beginner session.
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    There is one very important thing, (that I've just reminded myself) is that one must put everything else aside and focus on the tune 'at hand'. It is so easy to get overwhelmed and distracted by all of this stuff. And the key is in a mental exercise that crushes excuses, theories, attitudes and everything else in favor of working on this single tune. Once this notion 'sinks in' you are well on your way to a lot more progress. And after all of these years, I still forget how valuable this idea is.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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  6. #30
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Seriously, if it is possible. What are other sets that come to mind?
    Jack Mitchell's and John Ryan's polkas for sure...And what were the Lunasa sets?
    The Lunasa sets I've heard in sessions are mainly these two: Autumn Child -- Heaton Chapel, and O’Carolan’s Welcome -- Rolling In The Barrel.

    Another Lunasa set I really like but nobody but me plays it in my area is the "Breton Set" from the RTE Orchestra album: Tadin-Tinaketa -- Marche Des Charbonniers -- Ridees Six-Temps.

  7. #31
    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    I will say that i also have dozens of books, professional recordings (on rpms which shows how old i am!) and recordings I made myself at workshops and concerts. They're nice to have, but if the tunes aren't played by the people I session with, they are mostly just not on the tip of my fingers. OTOH, stuff i've never heard of suddenly becomes necessary to learn if I want to play along with the sessionistas around here. I have copies of Maid on the Green and I'd never heard of Anthony Frawley's, but it's a set I now have pat because one group of people I play with plays it at least once a session. A fiddle player I love to play with has a whole other set of tunes from living in a different area of the country, and I've learned many of those because I love playing with her. It's easier to pick up a tune when you hear it all the time, which is one of the advantages of being able to play with others on a regular basis.
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    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Similar to suggestions already made here, I find it easier to remember tunes I've learnt by ear, easier to remember tunes if I play them in sets, and also easier to remember tunes if I know them well enough to hum or lilt to meself. I do that all the time with tunes I've just learnt when I'm outdoors working - I'll have it going round in my head over and over and then start thinking of variations or ornaments and where to include them. Which brings me to another thing that helps me remember tunes - coming up with subtle variations in a tune seems to help embed it better in my memory for some reason.
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  10. #33
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    So much good advice there, Jill. I too find that the tunes I have learned by ear stay much better in my memory. Many of the tunes I have posted on my YT channel have been recorded while playing from the notation and often I just do not recall those tunes as I have not played them much afterwards. Playing in sets works well too.
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  11. #34
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's one of my repertoire folders. I take .ABC files, go to mandolintab.net and then print them out at my local post office.
    This morning I wondered how many tunes I had, but the problem is there are too many to count, so I weighed them. 16 kilos! I reckon I must have about 2200 tunes printed out. Then I have two repertoire books of tunes that I have already recorded for The Song A Week Social Group here in the Forum on MandolinCafe.
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/g...=67&styleid=15
    These are tunes that I regularly go back to, and practice.

    I do get a bit stuck on learning new tunes and notice that when I play from the recorded repertoire book they come by reading the first or second measure. But point is that I’ve realised that suddenly I’m enjoying playing tunes I actually know! I don’t play with others so this sort of works.
    Last edited by Simon DS; Apr-19-2022 at 9:49am.

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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Agree 100% with those who’ve said learning a tune by ear or from playing with others sticks better for me. If I learn from sheet music/tab I have to make a conscious effort to make myself start playing it without the music if I ever really want it to stick. Then I try to play along with a recording, which helps cement it further.

    Some of the praise songs I’ve played with the youth band at church are so imbedded because of repetition that I’ll occasionally completely blank on them. If I let my mind go blank and start up without thinking about it it usually comes right back. Memory is a funny thing, and it’s so different what sticks from person to person…

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  14. #36
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    I could not agree more with what Jill said here as I do the same thing. Simon does have a point however in that the 'dots' sort of 'remember for you'. As for memory, our own heads somehow hold the tunes and with a little prompt you are clear on 'how it goes'. I seem to remember the really hard tunes that I've struggled with, as well as the very easy ones. Or I associate tunes with people. For example Marty always played 'that hornpipe'. Can't remember it's name but if I think of Marty, then the tune just jumps out. The same goes for location as some tunes were played at that pub and not the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    Similar to suggestions already made here, I find it easier to remember tunes I've learnt by ear, easier to remember tunes if I play them in sets, and also easier to remember tunes if I know them well enough to hum or lilt to meself. I do that all the time with tunes I've just learnt when I'm outdoors working - I'll have it going round in my head over and over and then start thinking of variations or ornaments and where to include them. Which brings me to another thing that helps me remember tunes - coming up with subtle variations in a tune seems to help embed it better in my memory for some reason.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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  16. #37

    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    There are a lot of advanced players here and they help a lot, but sometimes they forget the stages you go through as a learner. I'm a learner still, but a bit further along, and so I'll discuss some stages that have revealed themselves to me that might bring a sense of hope to your practice:


    I don't know how many tunes I know now, I know too many to practice in a day or even week, so I have to rotate. So I toggle through tunes I know as part of each practice session, in addition to other stuff I do. What starts to emerge as you learn and practice more and more Celtic tunes is a knowledge that Celtic tunes have a style that not only work within the category of "jigs" "reels" and "hornpipes" (as well as airs, waltzes, etc), but there are common melodic themes that happen within various tunes. Some tunes are almost the same as another tune (or literally are the same tune), and there are often numerous variations of any given tune. So... once you learn one tune, you get to another tune and you learn it in like, 15 minutes because it's almost the same as this other tune you know. Then you hear a new version of a tune you learned, so you grind that out in 20 minutes without even looking at the music, because you can just hear the variation and what you need to do, and now you know two versions of that tune, and so on. Also, you are learning a new tune, but whole sections of it are just like this other melody from a tune you know, so you learn it in half the time, and so on.

    So, there is a point where, once you know a good body of tunes, the accumulation of tunes is exponential. People talk about picking up tunes by "ear" and discuss how "easy" that is. These advanced players forget how hard that is when you have no background in the "grammar" of Irish/Celtic tunes. But once you start learning this "grammar," then you hear a section and can play it because you already know it - or something close to it - from another tune, so you literally only have to learn two bars of the new tune, actually.



    So, stick with the process of learning the tunes, and this stage will open up to you, and make learning more tunes exponentially faster.

    Good luck!

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  18. #38
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?



    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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  20. #39
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    If I can't hum it, I can't play it.

    If I can hum it, I may not be able to play it; however!

    I agree with Jill M completely!

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  22. #40
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Learn how to guess intervals.
    So if you play a note, what does the fifth above sound like, and more importantly where is it on the fretboard?
    There are quite a few apps for phones that you can get to practice ear training (and singing). This is important because most people can remember thousands of tunes, but it's getting them onto the fretboard that’s difficult.

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  24. #41
    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhillipeTaylor View Post
    There are a lot of advanced players here and they help a lot, but sometimes they forget the stages you go through as a learner. I'm a learner still, but a bit further along, and so I'll discuss some stages that have revealed themselves to me that might bring a sense of hope to your practice:


    I don't know how many tunes I know now, I know too many to practice in a day or even week, so I have to rotate. So I toggle through tunes I know as part of each practice session, in addition to other stuff I do. What starts to emerge as you learn and practice more and more Celtic tunes is a knowledge that Celtic tunes have a style that not only work within the category of "jigs" "reels" and "hornpipes" (as well as airs, waltzes, etc), but there are common melodic themes that happen within various tunes. Some tunes are almost the same as another tune (or literally are the same tune), and there are often numerous variations of any given tune. So... once you learn one tune, you get to another tune and you learn it in like, 15 minutes because it's almost the same as this other tune you know. Then you hear a new version of a tune you learned, so you grind that out in 20 minutes without even looking at the music, because you can just hear the variation and what you need to do, and now you know two versions of that tune, and so on. Also, you are learning a new tune, but whole sections of it are just like this other melody from a tune you know, so you learn it in half the time, and so on.

    So, there is a point where, once you know a good body of tunes, the accumulation of tunes is exponential. People talk about picking up tunes by "ear" and discuss how "easy" that is. These advanced players forget how hard that is when you have no background in the "grammar" of Irish/Celtic tunes. But once you start learning this "grammar," then you hear a section and can play it because you already know it - or something close to it - from another tune, so you literally only have to learn two bars of the new tune, actually.



    So, stick with the process of learning the tunes, and this stage will open up to you, and make learning more tunes exponentially faster.

    Good luck!
    I would hate to think that the OP might dismiss advice provided here by "advanced" players because PhillipeTaylor thinks they don't remember what it's like to be learners. The things I listed that helped me remember tunes are things that I can date back right to the start of learning mandolin and tenor banjo, so not "advanced" techniques exclusively. From the get go my tenor banjo teacher taught me tunes by ear, no notation or ABC's used, and as a learner I noticed that I remembered those tunes much more easily than tunes I learnt on my own via ABC's. No one here has advocated that the OP exclusively learn tunes by ear, rather folks just commented that they seem to remember tunes they've learnt by ear easier than ones that were learnt from notation/ABCs/TAB.
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  26. #42

    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    I would hate to think that the OP might dismiss advice provided here by "advanced" players because PhillipeTaylor thinks they don't remember what it's like to be learners. The things I listed that helped me remember tunes are things that I can date back right to the start of learning mandolin and tenor banjo, so not "advanced" techniques exclusively. From the get go my tenor banjo teacher taught me tunes by ear, no notation or ABC's used, and as a learner I noticed that I remembered those tunes much more easily than tunes I learnt on my own via ABC's. No one here has advocated that the OP exclusively learn tunes by ear, rather folks just commented that they seem to remember tunes they've learnt by ear easier than ones that were learnt from notation/ABCs/TAB.
    For me, I was just trying to be helpful... no one was talking about that exponential transition that happens in the learning process, and, since I KNOW those particular commenters, having read their posts often, and learned from them, I guessed it was because everyone who chimed in was so advanced. They really are quite advanced players, even though they are often very humble about it. As I said in the post you quoted, these advanced players really do help a lot! Always grateful.

    Sometimes, a newer player has a perspective the more advanced players miss, simply because of time and distance. No hate. As a professional high school teacher, I also use this principle in my classroom. Sometimes the kids make better teachers than I do!

    I only got love for the advanced players here at Mandolin cafe!

  27. #43
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    How do you remember all of thoes tunes? The answer is "I do not know, but if you hum a few bars, I'll give it 'a go'.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Some tunes are associated with others, so you get kind of a 'package deal' if you learn one of them, the others come too. The Tarbolton set is just one example.
    Excellent! Yes.

    And the few times I have played in a band we would put fiddle tunes in sets of three tunes of ascending key. It is difficult now to play the one of these tunes and not have the other two come to me.

    I have a couple of Irish tunebooks that group the tunes in sets for playing dances without turning pages. I am sure its the same kind of thing.

    Its like if you learn some over arching structure, (arbitrary though it may be) you can more easily remember the pieces of that structure.
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed McGarrigle View Post
    Ive been at it for 2 years. I’ve “learned” about 9 jigs, 3 polkas, 7 reels and 3 hornpipes.
    So, my question : How the heck do you keep all these tunes fresh?
    Just a comment. I did not know a lot of tunes after two years. Took me two years to find the mens room where we jammed.

    The point is to avoid unnecessary anxiety generated comparing yourself to people who have played long time.

    I have noticed, through careful analysis, that it takes about a decade to sound like you have been playing for ten years.
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  31. #46

    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Others have said it but, for me, two things really make a tune "stick".

    The first is something which other players have mentioned. And that's playing with other people. When I first started playing Irish trad I would play at 2, 3 maybe more sessions every week and I found that tunes really began to stick. I *think* (just a personal theory and I've got no proof to back it up) that playing "with purpose" is more likely to make tunes lodge themselves.

    Nowadays the other thing which will make a tune take up permanent residence is if it somehow presses lots of buttons all at once - glorious melody, perhaps one with quirks which are fairly novel, feels good "under the fingers", leaves a little room for "personalisation". The most recent tune which did that for me was probably "Poor But Happy At 53", a reel in E Minor by the late Paddy Bán Ó Broin which simply connected with me when I first encountered it.

    Here's a thought which I bear in mind and which I find quite consoling at times. There are currently in the region of 43,000 tunes listed in the database at thesession.org. Allow for the fact that there's a fair amount of dreck in there which is unrecognisable as tunes which would ever gain traction in Irish music circles and that would make 30,000? tunes. Now, assuming we could learn a tune every day by my calculations it would take 82 years to learn the entire "catalogue". And I guess what I'm saying by that is that *no-one* is *ever* going to be able to do anything more than scratch the surface... (I don't know if that helps in any way, Ed?)

    Anyway, enjoy the ride and maybe don't beat yourself up about the number of tunes you know and take pride in being able to get enjoyment out of playing the tunes that you *do* know. I'd rather listen to a small number of tunes played well than a vast number of tunes played poorly!

  32. #47
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    Lots of techniques.
    One, as Aidan alludes to is a type of ear/singing/fretboard technique used while playing with others.
    It’s the ability to play a tune correctly the second time through.
    With perfect pitch you could probably fretboard-learn tunes without even holding a mandolin!
    Another part of the technique would the ability to remember chucks of tunes, pairs, four notes then measures, then the entire tune and be able to compare them with other tunes.

  33. #48

    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    DougC just dropped this in another forum topic, and I thought I'd drop it here, since it is likely to be helpful in connection to this topic. I asked him: What are some "core" session tunes? So that learning these tunes would provide a strong foundation to learn other tunes? He kindly provided this list.

    If you disagree with DougC about this list, please be polite and don't be critical - he went through the trouble to make this list - just make your own and post it if you disagree, please. It's so nice, and I want to thank Doug for going through the trouble.

    I made this document for our groups google file to refer to and thought I'd share it here as well, since it's so marvellously helpful in connection to this topic.



    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    His original post is in the "Jams, workshops..." Forum under Sacramento Traditional Irish Learning Session

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  35. #49
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    A cool, simple tune in an odd time signature helps too. There are some great Balkan tunes.
    Try 7/8 time, think of it as a rhythm that plays half a jig, then half a reel, then half a jig... etc. (Or half a reel then half a jig).
    Metronome the thing with expression, (1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4) as though your life depends on it!

  36. #50
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    Default Re: How do you remember all those tunes?

    The OP could try going to a mandolin camp where they teach by ear for a week. I used to go to Alasdair Fraser's fiddle camps (no connection), where teaching was by ear and intense for a long week. Being a reader, I was initially a bit sceptical - but a few months after the second time I went, I found myself playing tunes I'd heard but not played before, and tunes I'd only ever played on a different instrument, like bagpipes. It doesn't just work for tunes they teach at the camps - it seems to rewire your brain somehow for remembering all tunes you've heard.

    If you read, one thing I've seen a number of musicians with is a book with the name of a tune next to the first two bars written down. They say that helps - so long as someone can remember the name...

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