My Duff is hard to tune

[danmills]

I'm interested in any thoughts on how to solve this difficulty. My Duff F5 mandolin seems like it's harder to tune than it needs to be (e.g. harder than my Stiver).

I have Golden Age tuners on my Duff and I find them hard to turn and (maybe because of that) hard to make small adjustments. Should I try to lubricate them, and if so, with what kind of lubricant? Failing that, would the difference between their 15:1 ratio and the 16:1 ratio of Waverly tuners make any tangible difference? Would the Waverly tuners fit in the same foot print (tuning posts and screw holes)?

Thanks,
Dan

p.s. I don't know what the tuners on my Stiver are.

[Glassweb]

Hi Dan - I have never had a satisfactory pair of Golden Age tuners... they look great, but they have always seemed difficult to tune.

Apparently Lynn Dudenbostel has figured out how to solve this problem with the Golden Age tuners... give him a holler and maybe he can help you out.

[Richard500]

There are dozens of observations on just this - sometimes using Google finds MC threads easily. Although any tuner can be lubed, and ‘run in’ with a drill for some benefit, it is actually possible to design such a simple thing wrong so that it binds anyway, and permanently. I would assume that the installation on a high quality instrument, including nut shaping would be proper, and it’s the tuners themselves. Having the worm and the worm wheel centerlines skewed would do it.

[Marty Jacobson]

Golden Age tuners are great for building character.

[j. condino]

$6000 mandolin + $35 tuning machines.

Notice the incongruence?

I once got fired by a beancounter at a well known factory who did not play any instruments and called the neck a "handle". He decided that they should put $8 Chinese tuners on an $8000 US made guitar (to save $40) and got very upset when I started laughing at him when he could not understand why sales on that model essentially stopped.

[rcc56]

Golden Age tuners are made with 2 different post spacings. The tuners with the arrow end base plates are 29/32", which is used on most modern mandolins. The tuners with the scalloped end base plates are approximately 15/16" [Stew-mac calls it .931"], which was the standard spacing back in 1910 through sometime in the early 1920's. I don't know which spacing Duff used when he drilled the peghead holes on your mandolin, but if the tuners don't match that spacing, they will bind, slip, and be hard to turn.

The next time you change your strings would be a good time to remove the tuners on one side and measure both the holes and the tuners to make sure that they match.

Because the difference between the two spacings is small, it can be hard to measure if you take the measure from one post or hole to the next one. It's easier to see if you measure from the first post or hole to the last one. For the 15/16" spacing, the neasurement from first to last will be 2 13/16" [or 2 26/16"]. For the 29/32" spacing, it will be 2 23/32".

If your rule is not that precise, see if the measurement from the first hole to the last is more or less than 2 3/4". If it's less, than you need tuners with the modern 29/32" spacing. If it's more, than you need tuners with the 1910's 15/16" spacing.

[Ray(T)]

I found the ideal solution for those on my Clark GOM - I threw them away and fitted something better!

..... and yes, the GA “Restoration” tuners are OK but wouldn’t fit a Duff.

[HoGo]

I've used dozen or so of GA tuners (on new mandolins) and never had a problem. I have another dozen for my future builds and after one similar thread I chceked tem and they are all OK.
They can be a bit stiffer than other tuners when new as they are plated after assembly of the shafts which necessarily tightens any play between worm and cog wheel and also inside the tabs holding the shaft. I always lube, add polishing compound into the tight spaces and turn with drill till I see smoke (OK, not that far, but close). Then I clean thoroughly and lube. They turn smoothly and easily (even easier than waverlies I had). I make sure thay are installed correctly without any jamming. binding in the headstock otherwise they would go south after some time (as would any other tuners).
I heard M.Kemnitzer also refurbishes tuners similarly for his mandolins before use.
In older tuners there is often buildup of dirt/sweat in the tuners and some swelling of the wood etc that requires some maintenance and lubing.
BTW, they are not $35. If anyone has some for that price I'll take all you have...
Curent pricing starts at $86.

[Ray(T)]

Am I wrong in thinking that, if I’ve paid good money for something, it should work right out of the box?

[Richard500]

Am I wrong in thinking that, if I’ve paid good money for something, it should work right out of the box?

Maybe! Even with some wooden instruments, the concept of a run-in time has some psychic appeal, despite evidence. Luxury items, like famous architect houses, are ok if the roof chronically leaks. Your Ferrari doesn’t have to get you to work reliably, so boasting about its appetite for “tuning” is a gift. We’re all propagandized to believe that fundamentally poor things, if expensive enough, have acceptable quirks.

And, ref. HoGo, plating a gear mechanism after assembly is just bad.

[Bob Buckingham]

I've found Waverlies to be tight and need some run in. It is pure mechanics. I had GA tuners on my CEO-7 and replaced them with Waverlies and it was a big improvement. That was on a guitar. Having said that I have found Grover and Gotoh tuners to be fine with essentially no hassles.

[sliebers]

I don't get that at all. Did those tuners come new with the mandolin? I've never had luck with GA tuners. A Duff mandolin deserves better tuners.

[HoGo]

And, ref. HoGo, plating a gear mechanism after assembly is just bad.

Tell that to the Loar owners... Those old tuners were plated after assembly as well. The tabs holding the worm shafts are peened on the underside and that can hardly be done after plating without damage to exposed plated surfaces.
I have thirteen GA mandolin tuners in my workshop right now and NONE of them I would call excessively stiff. They are a bit tighter than "well used" tuners (after few weeks of use) but not bad at all. And yes, I've tried to turn ALL of the shafts on all 13 them after reading some bad reviews here on cafe.
I have no connection to StewMac and I often say it plainly when a product quality is questionable, but in this case I don't see a problem. Actually I've had quite a few mandolins with grovers or gotohs that were not working well, but in almost all cases the problem could be traced to either improper installation in the first place or negligence of the owner.

[rcc56]

Dan, I see that you're in Santa Cruz. Why don't you just take a drive over to Gryphon and have them look the instrument over for you?

[CES]

I have GA restoration tuners on my Kelley A-5, and they’re not nearly as smooth as the (I think) Schallers on my Rigel CT-110, but they’re functional and if I didn’t have the side by side comparison I don’t think I’d complain. That said, if your Duff is that difficult to tune, I agree with having Gryphon check them out and change them up if there’s not something easily fixable on the GA’s. No reason to have a great mandolin you can’t tune…

[danmills]

I emailed Mr. Duff for advice and he said he has found that the "relic" version of the Golden Age tuners can be tighter than the bright nickel finish. He arranged for StewMac to send me a discounted set to try. It's a big improvement, such that I no longer feel any need to incur the expense or hassle (screw holes aren't a perfect match) of installing a set of Waverly tuners. I'm happy, and grateful to Mr. Duff for helping me out.

[Ray(T)]

I find it hard to believe that there’s any practical difference between the bright nickel and relic versions - the “relic” is only in the plates and not the cogs and worms which I assume would be identical. It sounds to me like a case of inconsistency but, if you’re happy with them, fine.

(Interesting to know that the screw holes are different!)

[danmills]

... which I assume would be identical. ...

Your assumption is incorrect.

[HoGo]

There may be difference due to the production year difference. They are likely die cut baseplates and the die wears and needs to be replaced after some number of cuts. But otherwise the nickel or relic are the same when produced within same batch.
I wonder if the old tuners turn better when removed from mandolin...

[JeffLearman]

Here's a trick that helped a lot on the cheap tuners that came with my Saga AM-10 kit: toothpaste. Squeeze it in, and wind, wind, wind (both directions, but mostly tightening.) Clean it up. I still have issues with one or two of the tuners; not sure why they're different.

Of course, they have to be unstrung. I did mine before attaching to the headstock. But next time I restring, I may give it another try on the worst one.

[HoGo]

Toothpaste contains fine abrasive that cuts any tight spots in the newly plated gears and loosens them. I've been doing that for years (and some top builders do it too) but using metal polishing paste and I turn the tuners with electric drill.

[JeffLearman]

Toothpaste is virtually jewellers' rouge with fluoride and flavors, so, definitely a fine abrasive. But, isn't metal polish also a fine abrasive?

Are you talking about something like Flitz or Rolite?

If you say it works better, I'll take your word for it. Using the drill is a great idea. I wish I'd had that idea myself! Usually I don't miss an opportunity to abuse a power tool.