Stradivari mandolino "coristo" c. 1705 - tuning?

[OctoStringarian]

Greetings from a mandolincafe newbie hoping I picked the most appropriate forum for this post. Despite much online research, info about this Strad's original tuning has eluded me. Was it in 4ths like its 5-courses cousin, the 1680 "Cutler-Challen" at the National Music Museum at Vermillion, SD or given its 4 courses and the Stradivari's violin pedigree, was it perhaps in 5ths like a violin/ modern mando? Among other inquiries, I've reached out to Beare Violins Ltd in London which currently conserves this instrument and received a response from Peter Beare, "We're not certain about the original tuning". As a modern mando player, I'm hoping that the answer might at least concede a reasonable possibility of gg-d'd'-a'a'-e''e" because that would make for an easier decision about my having a copy made. Certainly a luthier or player involved in commissioning a copy would have addressed the tuning question. Does anyone know of any such folks? Even if you can't shed focused projector light on the tuning, a penlight would also be appreciated. - Thanks in advance, Octos -

[Charles E.]

Jo Dusepo might be able to help you.....

https://www.dusepo.co.uk/

She posts here on a regular basis.

[rcc56]

I know of no reliable treatise that discusses the tuning of mandolins during the baroque period.
The Harvard Dictionary of Music provides only a brief mention of the Neapolitan 4 course instrument, tuned in fifths like a violin.

But practically speaking, I would say that it is most likely that Strad's 4 course instrument was built with tuning in fifths in mind. If we were to tune a four course instrument of that size in fourths, its practical range in the first position would be reduced to an octave and a sixth, rather than the two octaves and a third available when tuning in fifths. Most players would probably find tuning in fifths to be more useful.

During a radio concert, Joni Mitchell, speaking about the lap dulcimer, said "You can tune it anyway you want, like a guitar . . .," and that is true. People have used multiple tunings on guitars [and cellos and violins] for a 2 or 3 hundred years. And although they were written several decades after Strad's mandolin was built, Mozart's mandolin part in Don Giovanni appears to be intended for an instrument tuned in fifths, as do Beethoven's C major Sonatine and D major Andante and Variations.

[allenhopkins]

Here's what Graham McDonald wrote in his book The Mandolin; A History (Jamison, Australia, 2015, pp.37 et. seq.): "The difference between the French mandore and the Italian mandola was mostly in the tuning, the mandore using the combination of fourths and fifths, and the mandola/mandolino using entirely fourths between the courses...The standard tuning for the four course instrument was e'-a'-d'-g'...Even the pitch they were tuned to varied in different parts of Europe."

Discussing Stradivarius' 18th-century instruments, of which two mandolinos are apparently the only survivors although the pegbox for a mandola is in the Cite de la Musique in Paris, McDonald states that "Strad" mandolas and mandolinos were made according to "Patterns of body outlines and pegboxes for seven different instruments from Antonio Stradivarius' workshop...clearly marked and named as 'mandolino' for the smaller sizes and 'mandola' for the larger ones...The various templates for mandolas in the Cremona museum, and reproduced in Sacconi's book on Stradivarius, suggest a range of string lengths from 42cm/16 1/2" to almost 60cm/24", and several different sized bodies."

Relying on McDonald as an authority, seems more likely that an early 17th century Italian mandolino or mandolin would be tuned in fourths rather than fifths.

[zgraft]

Definitely check out the book, Early Mandolin by James Tyler and Paul Sparks. https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mandoli...s%2C103&sr=8-5

They also have a Classical Mandolin book as well. I'd say that these are probably the most knowledgeable on the subject. Echoing what I've read from them, I'm sure that Stradivarius' mandolin family instruments would have been tuned in 4ths.
The mandolin tuned in 5ths didn't really show up widespread until the 1750s. Earlier mandolins really function as more of a 'piccolo' lute.

[OctoStringarian]

Thank you all for the informative responses so far. Dusepo sounds worth a contact given her extensive experience with historical instruments.The welcome citations of McDonald and Tyler & Sparks underscore my dearth of print sources. Although it's hopefully too early in the thread to acquiesce to unavoidable need for conjecture, rcc56's point about the limited range of 4 courses in 4ths is an appealing if not "wishful" argument considering that if the intended function was more of a 'piccolo'/'soprano' lute then a modest range would have been appropriate. If "the mandolin in 5ths didn't really show up widespread until the 1750s", it seems a short reach of imagination that a few must have appeared sporadically in preceding decades and not necessarily in just greater Napoli. That said, I don't mean to hijack my own post from evidence- to purely imagination- based musings.

[Graham McDonald]

There are folks the Cafe who play gut-strung baroque mandolins and have reported here that music, such as the Vivaldi mandolin compositions, which were written for gut strung mandolins, fall under the fingers more easily when tuned in fourths than they do when played on a modern instrument tuned in fifths.

Cheers

[OctoStringarian]

There are folks the Cafe who play gut-strung baroque mandolins and have reported here that music, such as the Vivaldi mandolin compositions, which were written for gut strung mandolins, fall under the fingers more easily when tuned in fourths than they do when played on a modern instrument tuned in fifths.

Cheers

That cannot be too surprising if Vivaldi et al. wrote for the fourths instruments . Also, for an instrument in fifths, it wouldn't fall under the fingers at all for some chords/arpeggios, e.g., a closed tonic chord in root position. Similarly of course, there are chords/arpeggios that would be playable with fifths but not fourths tuning.

As far as said Strad, fifths tuning would have the advantage of greater range and unique capability for certain chords while fourths the advantage of unique capability of certain chords. As far as any better facility, in both cases that should be a result of whichever tuning a composer would have written for. Even given an 'unlikely' Strad in fifths, it seems even more unlikely that there would have been any significant writing for it. But a violinist who might have commissioned it for some pizzicato on steroids or other jollies would not have cared.

[zgraft]

Also, keep in mind, that the 4 course mandolin tuned in 5ths, never really achieved acceptability until say, the mid 1800s. The mandolin (or mandolino) in 4ths or later, 5ths, was never really taken as a serious instrument, so there's very little written on it, outside of the Italian French performers and composers in the mid 1700s. And what makes it even more confusing is the fact that there are regional instruments, techniques, and names for similar instruments. A lot of things weren't even starting to be codified until say, Stradivarius and his contemporaries. Even now, there are such things as 5 course mandolins, and variations on every instrument. We're stuck with conjecture on a lot of this.

Plus, the Vivaldi concerto does work pretty well on 5ths, but that's my opinion.

[OctoStringarian]

Btw just found the Thanks tab hidden in plain sight

[David Lewis]

How common were chords then? I have a vague memory that you’d play a chord on the first beat of the bar? But a lot of baroque music doesn’t have chords at all?