tuning machine ratios

[bgpete]

With the digital tuners of today, it's possible to tune stringed instruments very precisely - the one I use (on my cell phone) will measure to a tenth of a cent. (Even with my not-great ears, I can actually tune an autoharp to a decent state now!)
But it seems to me that most mandolin tuning machines don't have a high-enough gear ratio to facilitate that accuracy: the slightest movement of the tuner knob often is far more of a change than what I intend.
Recently, Waverly has introduced guitar tuning machines with a substantially higher ratio - 21 to 1. I bought a set for my guitar and found that they make it much easier for me to tune precisely.
I immediately emailed Stew-Mac to suggest that they also make mandolin tuners with this higher ratio, since obviously they now have the tooling to do so.
I have no idea if Waverly sees any need to make this product, and I really don't know if other mandolinists share my desire for higher-ratio tuners.
But - if other players would like to see this happen, I urge you to email Stew-Mac with this suggestion. If enough of us do this, they just might make them!
Thanks for reading. - bgpete.

[MikeEdgerton]

You mean like these 24:1 tuners that showed up back in the 60's? I believe I've seen them in F style as well. They weren't received well. Up until recently you could still find then new on eBay. I got rid of the last new set I had several years ago to someone here. I'm a little surprised that Stewmac is taking suggestions though. For a few years several of us had asked for tuners that were more historically correct and couldn't get them to budge so consider that an accomplishment if you get it.

[Bob Buckingham]

I was surprised to see Godin has guitars with 18:1 tuners on the bass side and up to 32:1 on the treble side. Lots of winding in a change but real precise tuning once you are there. With the technology going into manufacturing there are lots of opportunities to the more mechanical aspects of instrument production.

[bgpete]

Mike, I vaguely remember those 24:1 tuners. Do you remember who made them, and whether they were decent quality?
In any case, I thought it was interesting that Waverly decided to offer their ubiquitous guitar tuners in the higher ratio. I hadn't noticed any guitar players complaining about "those darn low-ratio Waverlys".
It just seemed to me that mandolins, with their short scale, would benefit much more from this change. I ran this by Danny Roberts (hoping he still had some clout at Waverly), and he agreed it would be a help. And after all, Waverly is WAVERLY - the big dog in the field. If they saw a need for the higher-ratio guitar tuners, maybe I could find some support on the Cafe to convince them to add that option for mando tuners. Stewmac has a "contact us" box in their Support section - that's what I used to send the suggestion (and got a "thanks for your product improvement suggestion" form email back - at least they saw it).
And as I said in my email to Stewmac, if they make them, I'll be at the head of the line to buy a set. - bgpete

[MikeEdgerton]

Mike, I vaguely remember those 24:1 tuners. Do you remember who made them, and whether they were decent quality?

I always thought they were Grovers because the sets I bought were in Grover boxes with model numbers but others have said they were Waverly's (the old Waverly not the current company).

They were well made but most users hated having to turn them so many times to tune.

[sunburst]

I am not a fan of high gear ratios in tuners. Too much "cranking" required to get anything to happen!
I'm just fine with typical 4 to 1 banjo tuners, 16 to one feels like a silly amount of movement needed to get the string to tune, 18 to one and over drives me crazy! (Why won't these tuners work?!... oh, just keep cranking until something starts to happen...)

Also, accuracy of under about 3 cents is beyond possibility with even the best frets and strings, so a tuner with 1/10 cent accuracy is pretentious for stringed instruments.

[Richard500]

Well, the violin family evolution led to coarse and fine tuning in series, at least for the E, and lately, the cheap ones have four fine tuners, so one might consider approaching the other ends of the strings. Or as on some banjos, at the head end.
But….tuning is a matter of ‘stick-slip’ at the nut and bridge too, so once the tension differential gets too small, a string becomes less motivated to slip. That’s where the violin type bypasses the nut issue at least.
Mandolins, at current tensions, are nicely mated to the conventional ratios, for the tuning accuracy and speed appropriate for the musical purpose, even if the usual designs seem too coarse to, say, a mechanical engineer.
So here’s my question: Now that we do use these precise tuners, are there player preferences for best offset between strings in a pair?

[bgpete]

Yeah, Sunburst, I know a lot of people don't even notice their tuning machines - they just use 'em. But as I get older I find that small deviations from what I perceive as "in tune" bother me more. Having higher-ratio tuners on my guitar has definitely helped me achieve those little compromises we all make so that it's in better tune in all the chords and up the neck. (On my Martin, B-string and low E-string a hair flat, G-string a little sharp, etc.)
Regarding "too much cranking" - once they're tuned up, the difference in the movement of the knob isn't nearly enough to bother me.
To me, a 3-cent difference between the two strings of a pair on my mando is a huge irritation that I have to fix asap.
I agree with Richard500 that "stick-slip" complicates the tuning picture a lot; trying to get the strings that meet the nut at the sharpest angle to slide smoothly has always been a battle for me.
As I said, I don't know about other folks, but I'd buy a set for my mando if they were offered.

[sunburst]

...To me, a 3-cent difference between the two strings of a pair on my mando is a huge irritation that I have to fix asap...

Same here, but that's easy IMO. Just tune the beats out of the unison; no electronics required. 16 to 1 works just fine for that, and I don't think it would be a problem with a lower ratio.

[j. condino]

I put a very expensive set of 50:1 tuners on one of my old double basses, with everyone telling me how great the extra fine tuning would be.

It took two full revolutions for a 1/2 step...too much of a good thing. I sold the bass and the tuners....

[Jeff Mando]

Sounds like putting new strings on a classical guitar, ya crank, ya crank, ya crank, the strings stretch, and ya crank a bunch more......
..
Probably a weird thing to complain about, but I guess most of us expect instant gratification...

So yes, in theory, higher ratio tuners should be better, but in practice, nobody seems to like them...

[CarlM]

Those tiny differences are meaningless. Try watching your tuner as you play. You will affect intonation by how hard you pick let alone how hard your fretting hand pushes. I like my string pairs together and do not understand the "wet" tuning concept. But I have also played around watching the tuner as I pick, experimenting with different pick attack and left hand pressure. There is a point where your technique undoes everything no matter how much you nitpick the tuning.

[MikeEdgerton]

If you can measure it and it makes you crazy then by all means one should pursue their ideal. The flip side is that most likely nobody else can tell the difference.

[j. condino]

If you can measure it and it makes you crazy then by all means one should pursue their ideal. The flip side is that most likely nobody else can tell the difference.

'Perhaps the most accurate response for 95% of all posts ever made here on the mandolin cafe!

[GMorgan]

As much as I love my mandolins, I do miss how well my old violins would stay in tune. Using the friction pegs at the top of my violins to get it close and then making the tuning perfect with fine tuners on the tailpiece would often leave me in tune for days, and sometimes longer.

I did hunt for higher ratio tuners for my Eastman mandolin in 2017 because I was so tired of how difficult it was to get my tuning just right. I assumed that all I needed were fancier tuners and it would be easy to tune perfectly and easily every time. I finally gave up the hunt. Now, my newest instrument has Waverly tuners and it is also a challenge to get it right. It just proves the old adage: There are only two kinds of mandolin players -- those who are tuning their instruments and those playing out of tune.

Still, I do love the mandolin and happily play it out of tune a couple hours a day. And, if I turn off my hearing aids first, I hardly notice...

[James Vwaal]

I have a couple of mandolins. The 1979 Givens has 26:1 ratio which allows me to fine tune the pitch of each string. The 2015 Black has 16:1 tuners, which I find I have to mess with a bit more often to suit my hearing. The more one plays, I think that more one can hear the difference.

[mandroid]

I recall those 24:1 coming on Harmony Mandolins .. Paul Hostetter showed how the thin teeth required
to achieve that ratio tended to break off.

But making the round gear larger to allow thicker teeth made, them, a piece incompatible with typical peg head hole spacing..

some with an even lower ratio were offered but string pulled down into a screw like mechanism, unscrewing,
rather than around a post...

[bgpete]

Sounds like those 24:1 tuners were made from substandard metal. I'd guess that Waverly's higher-ratio tuners are well-engineered and won't have that problem. If I break any teeth on my Waverly 21:1 guitar tuners, I'll post it on this forum.

There have been comments citing the very-high-ratio screw-type tuners as a reason not to buy high-ratio tuners of any sort. I have no interest in 50:1 tuners; I agree that they would likely make tuning a chore. But what I am talking about is a reputable maker (Waverly) offering a 21:1 guitar tuner (hmm, wonder why), which makes me think they could do that for their mandolin tuners. It's not a huge change, but as James Vwaal seems to agree, it would help sneak up on that elusive correct pitch. Like him, the more I play, the more I hear those little differences. I was trying to get you folks who agree that they'd be helpful to let Waverly know you'd but 'em if they made 'em. For those who don't care, that's okay; don't buy 'em if they do become available. Problem solved.
By the way, James - do you know who made the 26:1 tuners on your Givens?

[bgpete]

Certainly true of my technique, CarlM!

[sunburst]

I'm just guessing/speculating here, but Waverly tuners are production made. In order to change anything, they would have to redesign and retool, and who knows how much. There are several things that I think could have been improved on Waverly mandolin tuners (and thus I seldom use them) and none of those are likely to change without the very unlikely event of a complete redesign. So, my speculation/guess is; no matter how many people express a desire for a different gear ratio it just ain't gonna happen, especially as long as they can sell what they are making.

[bgpete]

Sunburst - they did change the guitar tuners, so apparently it can happen. I wonder why they now offer the high-ratio ones for guitar in addition to the regular flavor. Seems to me they must have seen a demand for them; otherwise why would they do it? IMO guitars with their longer scale need finer tuning less than mandolins.

[James Vwaal]

By the way, James - do you know who made the 26:1 tuners on your Givens?

They are Grover tuners. A couple of years ago, one of the tuning screws went bad on me. I searched around for something equivalent, and not too expensive, but the ratios were mostly 16:1 or so. I ended up calling Greg Boyd who happened to have a set laying around his shop and he gave me a good price. Greg is the Givens guru and it is likely that my mandolin will end up for sale in his shop when I get too old to play it any longer.

[bgpete]

Thanks for the reply, James. You're fortunate to have a Givens, and I hope the day that you can't play is far in the future!
I've never seen a Grover tuner with a ratio that high. You don't happen to have an image of them, do you?

[MikeEdgerton]

Thanks for the reply, James. You're fortunate to have a Givens, and I hope the day that you can't play is far in the future!
I've never seen a Grover tuner with a ratio that high. You don't happen to have an image of them, do you?

I believe there's a picture of them in the second post of this thread.

[bgpete]

Thanks, Mike - James wrote 26:1 in his post, but you're probably correct that these are the ones he's talking about.