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Thread: Scrap Yard Challenge

  1. #1
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Scrap Yard Challenge

    I've been toying with this idea for quite a few years but only now I finally got the main ingredient - stainless spring steel shim stock.

    Some theory:
    WHen you bend wood across heated iron the inside of the wood surface gets compressed and outside stretched. Since inside gets hotter sooner than outside the compression dominates and wood can be bent. But once you bend wood with funky figure which makes the outside surface less resistant to stretching or bend to tight radii then the outside will start tearing apart (lifts) or you will get kinks. Thin steel strap helps keep the wood pressed against the iron and keep the bending forces more even with less kinks (but one needs to pull VERY tightly the strap) but it will not prevent the tearing completely with highly figured woods. Lots of experience and patience is required to get some odd pieces bent into tight radii. Sometimes the only help is some extra thinnng of the rib stock so it can bend easier.
    For bending thick wood beams workers use steam bending. Wood is first steamed in steam chambers and then bent against forms using bending strap that is RIGIDLY FIXED to the wood at both ends. This takes all the stretching forces from wood to the strap and wood is subjected to compression only - which it can take a lot in the freshly steamed state.

    Some history:
    When I was building my first mandolin almost 20 years ago, I was bending curly maple binding in 2mm thickness (which is exactly what I use for ribs) and I needed to bend it to really severe radii - the smaller headstock scroll binding piece had diameter of roughly 6mm or 1/4". Most makers just carve the binding piece out of solid piece of wood or use several thin layers of wood. I didn't want to do any of that so I did it just like the steam benders do. I took piece of steel sheet strip (galvanized roof flashing) and bent one end to a tiny squared hook to fit around end of the wood strip. This assured the one fixed end, the other fixed end was provided by holding the wood strip against the metal strap with flat pliers (strong enough but without crushing the wood). I wetted the wood and held it against my hot iron till all the water turned into steam and grabbed the hooked end with round nose pliers and bent it just like I would bend wire. Worked good enough and after several attempts I was able to bend the binding strips without breaks or kinks or crushing it unintentionally.

    Few days ago:
    I got my SS spring steel shim few days ago and immediately started planning how to bend the ribs in similar manner. It was clear that I can make the bending strap with a "hook" for one end of rib, but the other end was problematic. I used simple clamp in the past to hold wood against the strap but it would stand in the way of bending scroll piece almost all the way around my 2" diameter bending iron. I needed to clamp the strap/wood sandwich directly to the iron without obscuring the area too much so I can bend the end of scroll piece all around.

    Now the scrap yard challenge....
    Like with most of my other fixtures I strated by sweepeing the floor of my workshop and found some old plumbing pipe hanger some bolts and nuts an old clamp, some sheet metal and other metal trash.
    I cut some length of the strap material (stainless spring steel 0.3mm thick, 1.430 steel if you want to know) and bent rectangular handles from pieces of thick steel wire and took pieces of sheet to attach them to ends of the strap. On one end I added 2mm thick spacer that created the "hook" to tuck end of wood against. (see pictures)
    I had to shorten the pipe hanger as it was one size too big diameter for my iron, added cut piece of bolt and attached the half clamp. I had to file off sides of the bolt (8mm metric) to fit into the 6mm thick slot in the clamp. I replaced the clamp pad with cut off piece of steel I found laying around (I guess it was holder of my kids' bike helping wheels). That would clamp the strap/wood onto the bendingiron securely (less wide profile would be better).

    First test:
    I turned on my iron and took piece of random rib stock offcut. I didn't even smooth it out perfectly and intentionally left one end with saw marks across and some rough surfaces that would cause the piece break pretty much immediately when bent in conventional way.
    The rest of the first test is in the video linked below and in pics.

    http://gjgt.sk/~minarovic/bending.avi

    Summary:
    The bending went really well. I got one lift when I applied the clamp too aggressively in the start without waiting for the wood to heat enough. After that I could bend the wood with very little force needed - three fingers. The bend was perfectly smooth with no kinks and even the rough end of the wood could be bent without breaks or kinks (that was my second attempt not on the video)
    I found out the pipe hanger is too flexible and weak for the required clamping force and the clamping pad turned around a bit but it worked OK for this prototype. I've got better design of clamping method on paper but it would require some welding etc.

    Lesson:
    Don't attempt to drill holes in hard spring steel shim stock without drillpress and proper holding vice or fixture. The drill broke while holding the pieces with my bare hand near it and I drilled/punched hole right through my left hand thumbnail and all through the thumb. Luckily it was just 2mm drill and close to edge of fingernail and it healed well in just few days.
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    Adrian

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Adrian
    I could not get your video to load. The process looks really interesting.

    Another note about drilling the shim stock or other thin sheet metal. With a drill press it should be held in a vise and/or clamped to a board on the table. The drill bits can tend to grab and cause the shim or sheet metal to spin. That can slice a person up very badly and have an even worse accident than you experienced.

  4. #3
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    Adrian
    I could not get your video to load. The process looks really interesting.
    You need to download the video file and use your player (I'm using VLC or WMP just fine). I don't post video's on YT or social media so I just uploaded the file on our server.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    Another note about drilling the shim stock or other thin sheet metal. With a drill press it should be held in a vise and/or clamped to a board on the table. The drill bits can tend to grab and cause the shim or sheet metal to spin. That can slice a person up very badly and have an even worse accident than you experienced.
    I only have hand tools so I clamped the strap to the table but was holding the end pieces with handles inserted on it so I would drill them all in one pass... My stupid mistake, the steel is really hard. I ended up punching holes with a nail and then reamed them with a rough round diamond file in a hand drill... I cut pieces of a nail to serve as rivets, real floor sweep project :-)
    Adrian

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Adrian,
    Thanks for posting this. It looks like I have to upgrade my bending setup. I am currently using a 2" copper pipe and a propane torch and the heat is not nearly as controlable. It would probably scorch the wood badly holding it on that long. What temperature do you run on your pipe?
    Bob Schmidt

  6. #5

    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    “ Don't attempt to drill holes in hard spring steel shim stock without drillpress and proper holding vice or fixture. The drill broke while holding the pieces with my bare hand near it and I drilled/punched hole right through my left hand thumbnail and all through the thumb. Luckily it was just 2mm drill and close to edge of fingernail and it healed well in just few days.”
    Gosh! Sorry to hear that, but glad you mentioned. Doesn’t require power tools to get hurt.
    Anyway, thin, hard or grabby metals can be amazingly resistant. Magnetic (hardenable) ss is one. If no punch set is available, and opening the sharpening angle to 130 doesn't help, using either a Ti nitride coated or solid “cobalt” drill, dry, makes it easier. On the other hand, solid cobalt bits shatter very easily, so work best in a machine. The ancient Whitney hand punch saves a lot of effort, but the copies from China that I’ve seen just are not as good, but maybe they’re better lately. And of course, a little flame annealing of the metal wont hurt.

  7. #6
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    My iron is old plumbing pipe (galvanized) and electric dry heating element perhaps 1500-2000W @ 230V. It's a ceramic tube with the resistance wire spring spiraling around. Teh welded end piece has threaded hole in center and a ring (or a spur, I dont remember exactly) inside to hold the heating element centered. I filled the whole pipe with fine washed sand and capped the other end with sheet metal piece. It is connected to old high wattage rheostat that seems to work just in the exact range I need. I turn it on with the rheostat on max and it heats in 10-15 minutes to working temperature, then I lower it to min and it keeps the temperature just right. I guess I'm vlose to generally recommended 150-170C. I only get scorching after really long exposure of dry wood. I always test temperature by sprinkling water on it - if it bouces off it is right.
    BTW the extension is also just SS pipe offcut with welded end. held on with long M5 bolt. I filled the pipe with sand mixed with fire resistant stove/ fireplace putty and made sure it has full smooth contact with the iron so it heats up (albeit slower and perhaps doesn't reach the ideal temperature). I'm going to use it just to tighten some of the bends while the wood is still hot from bending on the main pipe.
    To Richard, the drillbit that broke and pierced my finger was TiN, it was just 2mm bit so it broke way too easily in my simple handheld drill when I started to press harder. I broke one more bit after that and resharpened the broken one to more acute angle which helped, but even simple punching with ordinary nail put a hole in the strap that could be enlarged with a diamond file. You can probably still see the hole in my left thumb fingernail in the video.
    I could visit my friends workshop (welder/machinist) but I wanted to do the prototyping inhouse with all the scrap I refused to throw away over years of various "projects" (at least this convinces me that keeping all the junk was worth it) and visit my friend later to build somewhat better permanent solution. I was thinking of cam lever holddown as used in machining like here: https://www.toolfastclamps.com/image...p-main-img.jpg
    just with the cam going at right angle to the lever to save space (and not hit the body of my bending iron). That would also allow the clamp not to be fixed to the iron pipe like this one but just slide on to whatever position it is needed and cam would fixt it in position. If you come up with something simpler or more effective please post, I'd love to hear it!
    Adrian

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  9. #7
    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Very nice! I similar (but more makeshift methods for a lot of my tight bends. It's amazing what a difference it makes to have the wood entirely under compression.
    Last edited by amowry; May-02-2022 at 2:21pm.

  10. #8
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by amowry View Post
    It's amazing what a difference it makes to have the wood entirely under compression.
    Whole world of difference! And you can bend some really thick pieces to tight radii. I'd known it for longer than my instrument building history goes (I built some snowshoes from bent wood, lacross sticks ans a banjo resonator etc. many years ago using steel backing fixed to ends of wood) but I was too lazy to apply it here for side bending - I somehow managed t live witout it with my limited building. Now that I have six mandolins underway I decided I will try to materialize at least some of my ideas that could make my life easier and bend the ribs fast and safely.
    I'm still toying with another idea of "scissors" style holding clamps that would allow holding a piece of rib stock securely against the strap just by squeezing them in hands and serve as handles to bend the wood quickly in any place within a long piece of rib. I've wasted many sheets of paper with sketches so far but I'm not entirely satisfied with simplicity of the design yet.
    Adrian

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  12. #9

    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Not entirely sure what your new clamp concept is, but my shop (anybody doing sheetmetal) used these. Made by many manufacturers. The jaws are angled to contact first at the far edge, but nothing says you can’t add something to widen the contact area. Usual jaw width is more than mandolin rib width. Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #10
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    This clamp would not allow the long ribstock and strap pass through the jaws... My ideas were mostly with the "handle" split and added to the sides of the jaws. Shaped into kind of loop easy to hold the jaw closed and pull the starp for bending over the hot bending iron. In this case I was also thinking about using strong sanding belt instead of steel strap. The grit makes much better non-slip contact with the wood.
    Adrian

  14. #11
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Here is my second session with the jig...
    First I tried to bend some really thick and rough piece of curly maple, 3 mm (1/8") thick and rough sawn from right from sawmill on both sides. It bent around the 48mm (~2" ) diameter pipe just as easily as my first attempt with no kinks or splits/lifts, see it in the pictures.

    then I went to bend the scroll rib for F-5... I tried the old method of clamping the rib to the steel strap and then bending around the iron and after that also around the 35mm (1 1/2") extension to create the waist bend and followed with the jig for the scroll. Fitted the form almost perfectly right off the bat.
    It was SOOOOO easy to bend those tight bends that I forgot to take more care and the rib piece between corners broke immediately in the easiest part when I pushed it against iron a bit too carefully. You can see how the grain goes across the rib in curly maple.
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    Adrian

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  16. #12
    Registered User pickinNgrinnin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Here’s an example of Adrian’s wood bending expertise. #7 Hogan. Still have it with me and it has really opened up over the years. Thanks Adrian! Jeff Anderson

    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #13
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Thanks Jeff,
    How old is that mandolin (must be made before 2007 when I moved, I still remember gluing it together in my bedroom)? Still looks quite shiny. Back then it was just simple roof flashing steel strap with no fixtures.
    Adrian

  19. #14
    Registered User pickinNgrinnin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    You dated it on 2/17/07. It has a super tight grained Sitka top from Orca Island Tone Woods and it took some time to open up. I still have the pictures you sent when it was in the building stage. I’ve babied it over the years, no strap on the scroll. Still looks, plays, and sounds fantastic. Jim Triggs added fret markers. I’ve added a CA bridge for the only mods. I remember we had an unconventional arrangement to get this to me. So glad you made it work! #7 is a work of art. Sam Bush played it some years back. What number are you on today?

  20. #15
    Registered User Schneidly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scrap Yard Challenge

    Adrian, and all the others who posted their helpful comments here; thank you for your help! Using Adrian's compression method and scrap yard sourcing as my model, I made some "clamps" from some scrap aluminum, bolts (from a different project), and maple blocks made from from a tree that blew down in our backyard. I was able to clamp my rib stock to my bending strap (strap on the outside of the bend) and successfully bent all the rib pieces for an F5 on some very challenging quilted maple. Previously, I had tried over and over again and no combination of heat or moisture (very little to generous) gave me much success. Certainly not with any consistently. The photos attached show my simple setup that helped me, in case they can help anyone else who is struggling like I was. They're overbuilt, so smaller scrap yard supplies would work too. It's just what was available in my "scrap yard".
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Greg

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