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Thread: "Noodling" at Sessions

  1. #126
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Classical music and ITM are recitals.

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    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    I still can't grasp ...
    I had to read the sentences 5 times to get the content right.
    Concerning "Irish" stuff: Here (in Germany) people think you can get by with a lot in Old Time, Irish etc. because "everybody plays the melody together really loud and staying in rhythm is not really a thing". I can't tell you how many times this misconception almost drove me over the edge. But it is, what it is.

    It is another thing when you have inexperienced musicians that you have to encourage to step into the limelight. Make their day. Let them have their spot even if they do not really know the tune, keep the tempo and what not. It will probably encourage them to get back to the drawing board and improve significantly. (It's a different thing when you're in a jam session with really (!) good musicians. But we're not talking about that).

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Jamming as I understand it, is different than attending a ITM sessiun.

    Jamming is the "low hanging fruit" or playing anything and calling it improv.
    I don't get what ITM means... Otherwise...

    No! Jamming/improvising is having an impromptu conversation in a highly artistic language that necessitates commitment of the highest order of your abilities to please not only yourself but also your communicating counterpart, i.e. the fellow musician.

    If it's just "beer music" (I coined the phrase because on a now - unfortunately - defunct festival folks used to play at the beer stand, seven banjos, five guitars, three mandolins etc. each louder than the other, pounding it out... it may be fun for a while, but only as long as the beer lasts. It is just like an alcohol fueled conversation. It doesn't mean a thing) it shouldn't be what we're talking about here.
    Olaf

  3. #128
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    I feel like I might like to start with the "beer music". A tad less intimidating, and less worry about what other people are thinking.
    "To be obsessed with the destination is to remove the focus from where you are." Philip Toshio Sudo, Zen Guitar

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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    ITM stands for Irish Traditional Music

    And the term Jamming is as Olaf said, but many think that it is a 'low skill level' contribution to group playing. One could call it 'noodling in the spotlight'.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    Classical music and ITM are recitals.
    They're very different formats, unless your only criteria is "playing what's written without extended periods of improvisation."

    And what's "written" is just the particular tune setting any local pub session is used to playing. It's not carved in stone like a Bach Classical piece. You'll never hear 100 different ways to play the actual notes in Bach's music, but you will hear that many different versions of a given Irish session standard if you travel around the world enough.

    There is also individual improvisation on a micro scale with how each player decides to ornament a tune. Without ornaments, if you're just playing the bare skeleton notes of a tune it doesn't sound Irish. So there is plenty of room for expression. It's not just reading the notes on a page, or copying what you hear in a recording. This may not be apparent on a casual listening, you have to get deep into listening to what people are doing with this music.

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  7. #131
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Sorry FoldedPath, I was thinking about your friend who said he didn't like Irish trad because it was too much like Classical music.
    Maybe he felt that the recitation part makes it less accessible to people for whatever reason? Maybe he saw noodling as a form of self-expression that’s repressed in the more recitative forms of music?

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    You'll never hear 100 different ways to play the actual notes in Bach's music...
    Well, Jethro Tull took care of this
    Some say, ITM is the disco dance version of Baroque, and people like O'Carolan built the bridge from one to the other. When I last heard the full Christmas Oratorio by Bach, I noticed the high percentage of re-used melody building blocks, just like ITM dance tunes have them. And it starts with a brisk waltz (the rest is a slow session, kind-of). Also, Baroque pieces are very robust against changes in instrumentation - you still hear it's Bach when it's played with a single recorder, just like ITM, but take one drum a way from Wagner and he'll run for his money.
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    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Well, Jethro Tull took care of this
    Yes, I went a concert at a music school in Brazil and they improvised Bach and Brahms. Trashed it in some ways. But they did it in a sort of rural style, played as though they didn’t know the pieces off by heart, just the feelings of the melodic phrases with extremely sensitive and nuanced rhythm.

    It was AMAZING!

    It was like reading a lost manuscript.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    I still can't grasp how something as simple as expecting attendees ... to make an effort ... is "rigid"
    I can:
    - good players make it look effortless and easy
    - the absence of conspicuous control mechanisms like conductors, drum sets, front superstars, fixed chord progressions creates the false impression that it works despite being disorganised
    - the abundance of simple-looking instruments creates an illusion that the music is simple as well (what can possibly go wrong with just six holes on that little metal whistle thing or with one stick on that tambourine-whatever?)
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    All this talk reminds me of a, once famous, British orchestra - the Portsmouth Sinfonia - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6piDRKOwh88

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    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    …what can possibly go wrong with just six holes on that little metal whistle thing or with one stick on that tambourine-whatever?…
    One measure played with that whistley-thing, that’s six to the power of eight.
    That’s 1,679,616 noodling possibilities just with one measure (assuming it’s Bluegrass -no rest notes).

    -I’ve only calculated for one measure because if you noodle randomly like that at a session you may not make it past the first measure.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    that’s six to the power of eight.
    Actually, it's fourteen to the power of eight, because all holes open is the seventh note in the octave, and there's two octaves to the whistle. Seamus Tansey may have a different opinion on the difference an octave makes, though
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Ah, but on a typical D whistle there are at least three more notes in two octaves. The cross-fingered C natural, half-holed G#, and half-holed F natural. Some players may be able to half-hole a Bb, I'm not sure about that. You're going to have to re-do the math on noodling potential.

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    Economandolinist Amanda Gregg's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Thanks, all, for this thread, which has been a fascinating opportunity to learn about the culture of a genre I understand very poorly.

    All players when stepping into a session or jam centered around a certain genre should learn the rules of engagement. I think you can learn a lot from working within those structures. At the end of the day, that genre might not be for you, and that's fine.

    As a bluegrass player, I'm very surprised to see improvisation described in this thread as "low-hanging fruit," since in my experience it is a huge leap for many beginning players to play something original at all. I love to see the moment someone makes the leap and improvises for the first time. All forms have their challenges. I can also see how annoying it may be for an intermediate musician who has just made that leap to try it out in musical situations where it is not appropriate. That's part of developing as a musician.

    I haven't found myself ready to receive the message of ITM myself, but I have enormous respect for the form and enjoy listening to it done well very much.
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Every genre has it's own challenges and Bluegrass is no exception.

    In Irish music the challenge is in memorizing a lot of tunes.

    How many Irish tunes can you hum the first phrase? Or the first few notes? It is very important.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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  23. #141
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Amanda Gregg View Post
    As a bluegrass player, I'm very surprised to see improvisation described in this thread as "low-hanging fruit," since in my experience it is a huge leap for many beginning players to play something original at all.
    When I first started diving down the well of Irish music, my previous life had been as a guitar player who enjoyed improvisation in formats like Rock and Blues, where you're given a lengthy space with other musician support to do that.

    It took me a while to realize that in Irish trad it's very different. It's unison melody so you can't just go nuts with it, but there is improv on at least two different levels plus an appreciation for writing new tunes:

    1) The micro level of ornamentation. It doesn't sound "Irish" unless you're playing more than just the bare notes, articulating them in different ways. Mandolin players are limited in this compared to sustaining instruments with their cuts, rolls, taps, cranns and so on, but we at least have the "treble" ornament, hammer-ons and pull-offs. Everyone in an Irish session or trad band can be throwing different ornaments on the tune being played in different places and different styles, but it all works out because the main notes in the melody still stand out.

    2) The next level of improv is slightly varying the notes you play with each repeat of a tune, so it doesn't sound boring if you're playing it three times through before going to the next tune in a set. This is not for pub sessions, more of a performance or recording thing for more advanced players.

    3) The last and most advanced level is writing new tunes. My S.O. attended a workshop with Irish fiddler Liz Carrol, and she had everyone leave the room, go outside by themselves and try to come up with a unique melody. Not everyone can do this, but she said it was worth at least trying because it's a living tradition. We're not all playing 200 year old tunes, although that may be most of the session repertoire.

  24. #142

    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    It is a discouraging thing - when you have someone like the OP who defines noodling like that. Noodling, as I understand it in 50+ years of playing, means just what JeffD said, it’s just messing around on your instrument. Random playing about. It’s a valuable tool in the woodshed, it can often lead to writing a new melody! I take noodling at a jam to mean random playing around between tunes, or really at any other time! Granted things vary at jam sessions depending on the leader or group, but IMHO a beginner should be encouraged to at least try to play along and respectfully corrected if they’re causing disruption. Noodling, just playing randomly or playing disconnected fills and licks between tunes is the annoying thing. And not just noodling, but practicing scales arpeggios etc. is rude in such a setting.
    Wow! As the Original Poster, OP, I don’t think that’s fair at all!

    I clearly explained that I’d been told this by a violin teacher my wife and I had, and that another person defined it differently, and asked to find out what the “real” scoop was, since it seemed so different, depending on who you ask. I also explained where I was in my journey, which is closer to beginner than many here, which is why I asked.

    So, blame the violin teacher. I’m reading the responses to learn, myself.

  25. #143
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by PhillipeTaylor View Post
    Wow! As the Original Poster, OP, I don’t think that’s fair at all!

    I clearly explained that I’d been told this by a violin teacher my wife and I had, and that another person defined it differently, and asked to find out what the “real” scoop was, since it seemed so different, depending on who you ask. I also explained where I was in my journey, which is closer to beginner than many here, which is why I asked.
    So, blame the violin teacher. I’m reading the responses to learn, myself.
    -no problem, I think there are some confusing errors in this (strange) thread where half the posts are talking about a different post than the one cited along with other strange dis-connects.

    (Quotes of others or clear references to the resources used, please. Academic resources are for sharing).


    To make the thread even stranger, here’s a vid with NO MANDOLIN CONTENT, though it is a great example of improv in Bluegrass.

    It shows many different playing styles, none of which are noodling!
    Talk about varied pick hand movements!


    https://youtu.be/mwcl4wtlNy8
    Last edited by Simon DS; May-30-2022 at 1:55am.

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  27. #144
    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    I feel like I might like to start with the "beer music". A tad less intimidating, and less worry about what other people are thinking.
    No, you would not. Let me quote you:"Hey, I think putting on the new (old) Handel tuners made her sound better, added to the sustain or something like that. Well, they work better than the repros did anyway. And they (along with the pickguard and tp cover) look freakin' awesome!"
    You chose great (original) tuners for your beautiful mandolin not just to have it functional but to have it in the most beautiful functional way (financially) possible. Think of playing music in the same way. You would like to play with people that do listen to you play to the best of your ability. That is the case in a proper jam session (and not in a "beer music" context). "Beer music" is just playing without thinking about it. That gets stale pretty quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amanda Gregg View Post
    All players when stepping into a session or jam centered around a certain genre should learn the rules of engagement. I think you can learn a lot from working within those structures. At the end of the day, that genre might not be for you, and that's fine.

    As a bluegrass player, I'm very surprised to see improvisation described in this thread as "low-hanging fruit," ...
    Playing with others incorporates the same rules in any genre. Play too loudly (or too quietly), not in tune or out of rythm and you´ll find yourself in trouble be it a chamber music group, a bigband or a bluegrass group. This goes for any kind of playing together be it a classical music rehearsal or a jam session. There are "rules" that I think are genre specific but in general this and playing to the best of your ability and listening to your fellow musicians is "it".

    I think that regarding jamming as a "low hanging fruit" is a misconception of many. People that think of jamming as the low hanging fruit think they can get by with sloppy playing. They want to play "beer music" as the low hanging fruit.

    A proper jam session works with people with lesser musical skills also. Having a conversation is also possible with people that are not well versed in a language. You just have to chose the topics acordingly.
    Conversation about rocket science or Immanuel Kant = Sierra Hull, Jason Carter, Mike Bubb, Ronnie McCoury, Bryan Sutton jamming.
    Conversation about where you come from = average Joe´s jam session.
    There´s nothing wrong with either. Neither is a low hanging fruit.
    Alcohol fueled party talk = people playing their instruments while mainly focusing on their own playing while trying to be loud in order to be heard and calling it a jam session.
    Olaf

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    No, you would not. Let me quote you:"Hey, I think putting on the new (old) Handel tuners made her sound better, added to the sustain or something like that. Well, they work better than the repros did anyway. And they (along with the pickguard and tp cover) look freakin' awesome!"
    You chose great (original) tuners for your beautiful mandolin not just to have it functional but to have it in the most beautiful functional way (financially) possible. Think of playing music in the same way. You would like to play with people that do listen to you play to the best of your ability. That is the case in a proper jam session (and not in a "beer music" context). "Beer music" is just playing without thinking about it. That gets stale pretty quickly.

    ...

    A proper jam session works with people with lesser musical skills also. Having a conversation is also possible with people that are not well versed in a language. You just have to chose the topics acordingly.
    Conversation about rocket science or Immanuel Kant = Sierra Hull, Jason Carter, Mike Bubb, Ronnie McCoury, Bryan Sutton jamming.
    Conversation about where you come from = average Joe´s jam session.
    There´s nothing wrong with either. Neither is a low hanging fruit.
    Alcohol fueled party talk = people playing their instruments while mainly focusing on their own playing while trying to be loud in order to be heard and calling it a jam session.
    You're right, of course, Olaf, when you put it that way. All the accumulated newbie insecurity is just hard to process.
    "To be obsessed with the destination is to remove the focus from where you are." Philip Toshio Sudo, Zen Guitar

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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    You're right, of course, Olaf, when you put it that way. All the accumulated newbie insecurity is just hard to process.
    This topic I hope, has brought a lot of valuable information and clarification about Sessiuns and other gatherings of musicians in different fields. So if you have read this thread, you really are no longer a 'newbie'.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  30. #147

    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    I hear the newcomers who claim they are “discouraged” and I can understand that.

    At the same time, Irish Traditional Music is, unlike a lot of music, an open forum for players to participate that is somehow also a “performance” level event. Most music performed in public nowadays is performed on stage with a group of people who practiced in private for a long time first, and you really can’t participate. We all go to the bar and sit around the stage and clap and sometimes the “band” is good enough that they can make us pay to listen to them.

    Certainly there are “jam sessions” for people to just come to a place, usually a music store or private home, and player screw around, maybe play some popular tunes and anyone present can try to join in and participate and figure out what to do. These “public” jam sessions are really more like a “learning session” than anything else, and that’s great. They are open and provide a great deal of opportunities for people to learn and grow as well as to showcase growth and opportunities to practice some tunes with people. Sometimes a few really good players thrown down a great tune that drops everyone’s jaws, and other times it’s just pure, joyful chaos. Jam sessions are awesome!!!

    Irish Traditional Music is just another thing, though, neither a “jam session” nor a “band performance”. and making it into a “jam session” or thinking it should be just seems to me to be not paying attention to this third cool zone. It’s neither a “jam session” nor it is a formal “performance”. Somehow, ITM has created this cool, third “zone” of musical “performance” and I just think it’s sad that people need to make it into something it’s not.

    Being now in a position to plan these events, and looking for venues, I think it’s helpful for people “discouraged” learn something about how organizing a ITM session works:

    First, ITM often occurs in a pub or a business. Business owners ALLOW these events, usually on their less busy days. You can’t just go in and start playing somewhere. The business owner will kick you out, eventually. You might get away with it once, maybe twice, but the owner or someone will eventually tell you to stop. You get PERMISSION to run your session at a pub or cafe or some business CONTINGENT upon the condition that the event draws people and is at least CLOSE to a performance level event. They don’t want a “jam session” in their business on a regular basis. Sorry, just the facts of business. If you think that’s inaccurate, go try to organize a random “jam session” at your local pub or coffee shop every Tuesday. If your local business owner allows that - great. But trying to organize these events, I can tell you, that’s a rare phenomena. And I’m the kind of person who is willing to try the principle of “better to apologize after, than seek permission.” So… I know this from experience . Most business owners want something quite a bit more refined and organized. If it gets too sloppy, the pub owner will tell the event organizer not to come and play there anymore.

    Second, ITM allows the OPPORTUNITY for any Joe off the street who has put in the requisite practice to show up at a pub, sometimes from out of town, even, and come by to “sit in” on a performance level event, provided the “normal Joe” can keep up. Try that with the next band that goes on stage. Bring your mandolin and go up to the band between sets and ask if you can “sit in” with the band and maybe take a solo. We simply don’t have an access point for people at this point. (Who does Beyoncé think she is?! I’ve been practicing this tune for MONTHS!!!).

    ITM is the only kind of music that I know of that has claimed this “zone” of putting on an event that is polished enough to come off as a “performance” in a public locale, while also being open for some level of participation by audience members, both for musicians and dancers. That’s a pretty cool zone, and I think you have to honor that zone and try to step up to it, rather than try to change the format into something that, quite frankly, will just lead to the players being banished from playing in pubs and public forums completely.
    Last edited by PhillipeTaylor; May-30-2022 at 10:27am.

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    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    You're right, of course, Olaf, when you put it that way. All the accumulated newbie insecurity is just hard to process.
    Unfortunately often enough technically better pickers are adverse to novices (or people they don´t know) to join in a seemingly open session. This is something that really gets my goat. I cannot count the times when I had to show people that I could dance circles around them befor they accepted my playing...

    This is why I am preaching that nobody needs to be intimidated by other musicians. At one time they were as good as you (or less good). The best musicians are kind, outgoing and encouraging in a jam session.
    Olaf

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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    Unfortunately often enough technically better pickers are adverse to novices (or people they don´t know) to join in a seemingly open session. This is something that really gets my goat. I cannot count the times when I had to show people that I could dance circles around them befor they accepted my playing...

    This is why I am preaching that nobody needs to be intimidated by other musicians. At one time they were as good as you (or less good). The best musicians are kind, outgoing and encouraging in a jam session.

    I remember a session in Madison Wisconsin where we had to suffer thru a whole evening of watching this piper dominating the sessiun, (he was the supposed leader of that sessiun). He played only obscure pipe tunes in order to keep us 'visiting musicians' from joining. I had my violin ready but, I was a snob too as I looked at this guy holding a nice mandolin with a frown. I thought to myself that he's a Bluegrasser and probably knows nothing about Irish Music. We never did get to play that night but we did have a few beers and a nice talk about building mandolins. So the social side of the Sessiun overcame poor attitudes. And we left that evening as good friends.
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    Default Re: "Noodling" at Sessions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    All this talk reminds me of a, once famous, British orchestra - the Portsmouth Sinfonia - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6piDRKOwh88
    Thanks for the laugh!
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