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Thread: Tempted to try it all myself

  1. #1
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    Default Tempted to try it all myself

    Hello again! It has been a while since I posted and I've not made massive progress with my mandolin. A lot of it is right technique which I need to practice but I am still not getting along well with the fretboard.

    (It is a £200 Ozark, nothing special)

    To briefly summarise; the action is, from what limited measurements I can make, way off at both the 1st and 12th frets. The nut slots need deepened and the base of the bridge needs a hefty sanding as the rollers are as low as they can go. The shop I got it from, not unfamiliar with mandolins, didn't see the point in making these changes when I went back to them.

    A friend of mine from high school (met about 9-10 years ago?) has recently moved close by and agreed to have a look at it for me. He's not got 20 years experience but I know he's not an idiot and has had practice maintaining many different stringed instruments. Hopefully he can sort out the nut for me.

    However the point of this post is because I am feeling the call of stupid hubris and curiosity. The frets are bloody shallow and refretting the whole thing sounds like fun...to me. I know it won't be fun; it would be difficult, time consuming, fiddly, and very easy to mess up quickly. But at the same time that's my whole thing, I own 2 accordions purely because I got bored one day and taught myself how to fix them(including tuning metal reeds). Worst comes to it I am happy to go back to the shop, hand them my ruined mandolin and a stack of money and get it done proper.

    I like the look of the EVO Gold 43080 in terms of dimensions and aesthetic. I've read up on frets.com and in the few books I own but I came to ask for 1st hand accounts and tips from people who have been where I am. I anticipate a lot of "don't bother" but learning by trial is just one of those things you feel the need to do.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    Hi Larten,

    Yes, EVO gold is a great wire, I've put it in a lot of instruments. You should be aware that refretting requires over a hundred dollar in tools, there's no way around that. Then you have to replace or shim the nut and adjust the slot depths (another expensive set of tools). Also tolerances are extreme, a few thousandths of an inch is major so expertise really pays off. There's plenty of good instruction on the web about the process. The bottom line is that you will spend more on tools than the instrument is worth. I would first find a luthier who knows mandolin set up and get your instrument dialed in. Then you can decide if you're interested in moving up to a better instrument to facilitate and motivate your learning.

  3. #3
    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    I'm always 100% in favor of learning new skills, as long as you have realistic expectations. It sounds like you're approaching it with the right attitude, e.g. you know that it will be difficult and you know that it could go wrong, but you're willing to take that risk in the name of learning a skill. It sounds like a good practice instrument to me. I would start by reading plenty of luthiery books-- that will help give you a better sense of what is involved. For refretting, the Stew-Mac book Fretwork Step-By-Step is a good resource.

    In case you're not already aware of this, refretting an instrument is considerably more difficult than fretting a new instrument. Also, EVO is more difficult to work with than nickel silver because it is less forgiving in terms of matching the fretboard radius, and it is more difficult to file flush with the fretboard edges. I personally wouldn't use it for a first fret job. You can get nickel-silver in the same dimensions, and it will likely last at least until you're ready to move up to a better mandolin.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    I don't know if you already have any tools, but if not, I'd start on building that collection up first.

    Over time, I bought a Hosco set of 11 nut files from Philadelphia Luthier Supply, a set of individual feeler/thickness gauges, a Z files for fret crowning, some large flat diamond-coated knife sharpening stones for fret leveling, an inexpensive fret press from eBay, a few credit card sized fret rocker/string action height gauges, nd a few other tools.

    StewMac.com has quite a lot of instructional information for their tools, and with some improvisation, you can get the same results with less expensive materials. As an example, instead of their specialized Safety Slot nut slot filing caul, which hols feeler gauges against the nut so you never accidentally go too deep, I use rubber bands.

    A good luthier friend of mine once told me that some people put pride ahead of just getting the job done right. 'A real luthier can cut a nut slot depth precisely to .0875" by just eyeballing it!" Really? I've always been pleased with her work, and she has a good reputation even among AL guild members, so I have no problem taking her advice.

    Whatever path you choose, good luck!

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    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    I don't know if you already have any tools,
    Quote Originally Posted by amowry View Post
    I'm always 100% in favor of learning new skills
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Roy View Post
    Hi Larten,

    Yes, EVO gold
    Thank you for the replies so far! Lots to take away, especially about the tools and EVO maybe not being the best shout for my first attempt at refretting. My trying this is way down the line but I've got plenty research to do before then.

    (Moreover I need to find a way of turning my cramped carpeted bedroom into a suitable workspace)

    This is my reference point for now, it's the best mandolin-specific guide I can find and I'll use it along with whatever lutherie books I can lay my hands on:
    http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luth...5refret01.html

    I have neither the patience nor money to get tools from Stew-Mac but with their incredibly helpful youtube videos, finding affordable alternatives will be no problem. For UK based companies ToneTechLuthierSupplies is looking solid, if anyone can corroborate that would be helpful.
    Last edited by larten27; May-18-2022 at 9:59am. Reason: Clarity

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    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    There are many places to get a few tools to do a refret that are cheaper than stu mac. A fret pulling pliers can be made easily if you have access to a grinder or belt sander, from hardware end nippers. A dead blow hammer works well for fretting, but you may want to buy a crowing file. You could do it the old way using a small triangle file with the corners ground off, but it's easier with a crowing file. You only need to buy the one that works for the size wire you are putting in, not a variety of files.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    Less costly versions of most of the refretting tools are readily available through Amazon.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    I would just have fun with it and not expect perfection. Ideally we talk about thousandths of an inch, but in reality you just need to get the strings to follow the neck with low action and no buzzing, simple as that.

    First you might want to try leveling the frets you have, and checking the truss rod. No special tools are needed -- a $5 file from Harbor Freight will work and even cheaper is a block of wood with sandpaper wrapped around it. It usually just takes a few strokes.

    Anyway, the way I look at it is that most of us are playing instruments that need fret work -- sometimes for years! Sometimes even a small improvement will give acceptable results to get you playing again. Another option that often works is to use a fret rocker and spot file the problem areas while the neck is at proper pitch. If you don't have a fret rocker, a credit card works fine.

    Those are my thoughts, just try to get a non-working instrument working again. If the leveling doesn't solve the problem, then sure, try your hand at refretting. If you have good skills with hand tools and understand the logic and the adjustments available -- bridge height, neck relief, nut height, and fret height -- you should be fine. Don't expect perfection the first time. Actually, many luthiers with many years experience get away with less than perfect work, IMHO.

    Good luck and have fun!

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    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    I would just have fun with it and not expect perfection...

    First you might want to try leveling the frets you have...

    Anyway, the way I look at it is that most of us are playing instruments that need fret work -- sometimes for years! Sometimes even a small improvement will give acceptable results to get you playing again. Another option that often works is to use a fret rocker and spot file the problem areas while the neck is at proper pitch. If you don't have a fret rocker, a credit card works fine.

    Those are my thoughts, just try to get a non-working instrument working again. If the leveling doesn't solve the problem, then sure, try your hand at refretting. If you have good skills with hand tools and understand the logic and the adjustments available -- bridge height, neck relief, nut height, and fret height -- you should be fine. Don't expect perfection the first time. Actually, many luthiers with many years experience get away with less than perfect work, IMHO.

    Good luck and have fun!
    Thanks for your reply! Lots of great stuff in here too, really appreciate all you helpful folks. Tinkering with instruments must be part of the charm, I know it is for me at least.

    I'd be hesitant about levelling the frets as the low points are...exceedingly low. Moving towards the headpiece I can see a definite concavity to them and with them already feeling pretty short I'd be worried it would make the whole thing worse

    (Still no idea why this image decides to turn upside down)
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    I like to think I'm patient and careful with detailed work but I for sure need to brush up on neck relief/truss rod adjustment if I want to try any more work. That's the area I know the least.
    Last edited by larten27; May-19-2022 at 5:28am. Reason: Apologise for upside down image

  10. #10
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    I have ever only used nickel frets but got good results with just some files, sand paper and end cutters and feeler gauges, but it was so seriously tedious. Having the proper tools would make all the difference in the world. I didn’t find the job exceptionally difficult the problem was maintaining the attention to detail and patients to get a good job done with limited experience and the most basic of tools!

    I should add that I also used one of those articulated magnifier lights, even when my one good eye was exceptional just having a larger view helped me a lot for certain tasks and now that up close is not as clear it is almost a necessity!
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    Thanks for your reply! Lots of great stuff in here too, really appreciate all you helpful folks. Tinkering with instruments must be part of the charm, I know it is for me at least.

    I'd be hesitant about levelling the frets as the low points are...exceedingly low. Moving towards the headpiece I can see a definite concavity to them and with them already feeling pretty short I'd be worried it would make the whole thing worse

    (Still no idea why this image decides to turn upside down)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192558.jpg 
Views:	63 
Size:	541.0 KB 
ID:	201154

    I like to think I'm patient and careful with detailed work but I for sure need to brush up on neck relief/truss rod adjustment if I want to try any more work. That's the area I know the least.
    Yes Larten, you are correct, there is not enough meat left on some of those frets for a fret leveling and definitely not enough for recrowning. A refret is in order if you want to improve playability. I would not put EVO gold in that instrument unless you are really in love with the tone and anticipate playing it for decades. Nickel/silver in the standard 0.080" width would be fine for learning the ropes of fret work.

    The concave bow can only be addressed by the truss rod for the first 10-12 frets. Above that the truss rod has no effect. Mandolins require little to no relief by the way. The rise of the fretboard in the area over the body can be reduced when you refret if you're brave enough to remove wood and perhaps deepen those fret slots. You can also grind down the frets in that area to get them closer to parallel with the string plane in the leveling process.

    I own a lot of Stew Mac tools but I've been building and repairing for a long time so they have paid off. One of the better alternatives is Philadelphia Luthier Supply which has very similar, if not identical, tooling for about 2/3 the price and good quality. I don't know how expensive it is getting them shipped across the pond. I would beware of tools you come across on eBay that are 1/4 price of good ones. I've found cheap tools to be frustrating to use.

    Good luck in your adventure and be sure to let us know how you like the sound of your mando after you get the new frets in.

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    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Roy View Post
    Yes Larten, you are correct, there is not enough meat left on some of those frets for a fret leveling and definitely not enough for recrowning. A refret is in order if you want to improve playability.
    Glad I'm not crazy! It's currently with my friend so I can't get a good look at it but I know at least the first 6 frets are so shallow, I can only imagine they've been horrifically worn down or filed into oblivion. He said he offers refret service and part of me thinks it would be wise to let someone else do it, but I'd also quite like that sense of accomplishment. (Even if I mess it up at least I tried lol)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Roy View Post
    I own a lot of Stew Mac tools but I've been building and repairing for a long time so they have paid off. One of the better alternatives is Philadelphia Luthier Supply which has very similar, if not identical, tooling for about 2/3 the price and good quality. I don't know how expensive it is getting them shipped across the pond. I would beware of tools you come across on eBay that are 1/4 price of good ones. I've found cheap tools to be frustrating to use.
    Sadly I think shipping costs and wait times just destroy the viability of places like Stew-Mac, Philadelphia Luthier etc. for me personally. There are some options over here (I think one is Tone Tech Supplies) and Amazon carries items I could modify to suit my needs if it comes to that. I could also ask my friend who his preferred vendor is, he's trying to make a go of it running a small business as a guitar tech.

  13. #13
    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tempted to try it all myself

    You may be able to borrow a few of the more expensive tools from your friend if your immediate goal is one fret job. A fret tang nipper makes the job a lot easier.

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