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Thread: Worth repair?

  1. #1

    Default Worth repair?

    Hi all, new here! I inherited my grandfather's Cello years ago. It's been stored for a long time and time took its toll. He bought it in the 1920's in Holland. Obviously it's got sentimental value, but I'm not sure if it can be restored. I don't play myself, and just don't know what to do with it. Perhaps you can chime in. Thanks in advance!Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Can it be repaired? Yes, by a truly seasoned violin family repairman. Do not take it to a fretted instrument person. The procedures, techniques, glues, and finishes used in violin/cello repair are very different from those used by the local guitar repairman, even if he's really good.

    Is it worth repairing? It's hard to judge the quality of the instrument from your pictures, but it is built out of good quality solid woods.
    Again, take it to a good violin/cello person and have them evaluate it.

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  4. #3
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    It most definitely can be repaired, I have repaired much worse. As rcc56 says take it to a repair person that repairs violin family instruments, not guitars. Sometimes the sentimental value is worth more than the monetary value.
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  5. #4

    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Objects of sentimental value have different considerations other than the possibility of restoration. Some things simply need preservation, others may be valuable and destined for playing. I think the first thing, if you’re in Austin, is to see someone in the violin family trade or hobby to get a feel for the possible musical value, both as is and restored. And a rough estimate about what this one needs and costs.
    Then, you can decide which way to go: cosmetics only, playable, original condition, etc.
    You’re the one to decide if something’s worth restoring.

  6. #5
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Yes it can be repaired but that is a big job. Any label in the inside from the maker?
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  7. #6
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Solid wood (not laminated), lots of play wear, came from Europe, looks like fluted f-hole wings, All these things and probably more point to it possibly being a very good hand made instrument, and perhaps of some value. I'd be interested in hearing what values a good violin shop would assign before and after proper repair. I think I might see some evidence of substandard repairs done in the past, but I can't really tell from internet pictures.
    (I have seen what I considered substandard repairs in important antique violins, so...)

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  9. #7
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    As John has said, it might be worth an appraisal by a qualified violin shop. Here is a link to the American Federation Of Violin And Bow Makers......

    https://www.afvbm.org/

    It is the most professional group in the country. You can look in the members list by location for a shop near you.
    Last edited by Charles E.; May-18-2022 at 6:06pm.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  10. #8
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    I can only accurately evaluate the quality of a bowed instrument if I can tune it up and play it.
    Looking at the quality of woods and craftsmanship can be somewhat informative, but it can also be misleading.

    I've run into some very plain instruments that were very good, and some very fancy instruments with fancy wood and lots of detail work that were awful.

    My inclination on the OP's instrument is that it might be pretty good, but there's no way to know for sure unless it is put into playable condition.
    Last edited by rcc56; May-18-2022 at 7:04pm.

  11. #9

    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Your pictures aren't great, but this cello doesn't look like the "usual" Markneukirchen fiddle, to my eye it looks much earlier possibly mid to late 19th century. The wide set f-holes remind me of many Viennese basses I've seen. After taking a closer look at the pictures I'm editing this, because it looks like the instrument definitely needs a button graft, and that saddle crack could turn into a bass bar crack, both of which are expensive repairs.

    It's interesting that the neck has been shimmed by as much as it has, it could be possible this instrument is old enough that it was converted from a baroque setup to a modern setup by shimming the neck to increase the neck length and projection to modern standards.

    You could try posting some pictures over on Maestronet, they could help you in identifying it and possibly give you a better value/repair cost.

  12. #10
    Registered User Brian560's Avatar
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    The bow should not be neglected for both repair and appraisal.

  13. #11

    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Thanks to all who took the time to reply. I have attempted to take a picture of what I think may be a label of the builder. Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #12
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Camilli is in the violin dictionaries.
    Again, take it to someone who knows bowed instruments.
    False labels are very common. The chances are about 98% that this is a later instrument. My first impression from your very limited photos is that it was most likely built in the 19th century. But one never knows what might turn up.
    Someone who knows these instruments should be able to tell whether or not it was made in the 18th century.
    If so, it would still be very difficult to authenticate it as having been built by an Italian maker.

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  16. #13

    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Camilli is in the violin dictionaries.
    Again, take it to someone who knows bowed instruments.
    False labels are very common. The chances are about 98% that this is a later instrument. My first impression from your very limited photos is that it was most likely built in the 19th century. But one never knows what might turn up.
    Someone who knows these instruments should be able to tell whether or not it was made in the 18th century.
    If so, it would still be very difficult to authenticate it as having been built by an Italian maker.
    Thanks! If it were actually made by that maker in the 18th century, would that make it valuable at all? I'm not sure if fake labels were a thing when my grandpa bought it in the 1920's? I doubt he spent a lot of money on it, he was not a wealthy man by any means.

  17. #14
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Quote Originally Posted by CelloinAustin View Post
    ...I'm not sure if fake labels were a thing when my grandpa bought it in the 1920's?...
    Yes. Thousands of "Stradivarius" violins have raised the hopes of thousands folks sorting through attics and basements, and usually the 'copy' isn't really that good.
    I would bet on your label being... not exactly fake, but that of someone making a 'bench copy'... but... you never know until it is examined by someone who knows.
    Sometimes a "fake" label is not a bad thing. Someone could have done his/her best to emulate a fine instrument and made a high quality copy.

  18. #15
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    False labels have been around for 175 - 200 years. I'll edit my earlier comment about the chances of your instrument having a false label are probably closer to 99.5%.

    A well made authentic 17th century Italian cello would be at least moderately valuable. Later European cellos are also at least somewhat valuable [maybe a couple of thousand] if they are instruments of good quality and in good repair. But bear in mind that cheap, junky violins and cellos were also made in Europe in large numbers as far back as 1800. Also bear in mind that instruments with a lot of cracks are less valuble then similar instruments in better shape.

    I have a violin with a false 18th century label [it's typewritten!] that is actually a pretty good instrument. I bought it for a few hundred in unplayable condition because it has a gorgeous one piece narrow flamed back. I crossed my fingers that it would be a good sounding instrument after I got it together. I also was ready to hang it on the wall and admire the back if it turned out to be no good. It's not particularly valuable, though. Since the maker is unknown, its value would be determined solely on what a buyer would be willing to pay for a good sounding older instrument with a pretty back.

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  20. #16

    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    False labels have been around for 175 - 200 years. I'll edit my earlier comment about the chances of your instrument having a false label are probably closer to 99.5%.

    A well made authentic 17th century Italian cello would be at least moderately valuable. Later European cellos are also at least somewhat valuable if they are instruments of good quality and in good repair. But bear in mind that cheap, junky violins and cellos were also made in Europe in large numbers as far back as 1800.
    Makes sense! I also just noticed the spelling of the name on the label is Cammillius and not Camillus....that may be an indication ;-)

  21. #17
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Quote Originally Posted by CelloinAustin View Post
    ...I also just noticed the spelling of the name on the label is Cammillius and not Camillus....that may be an indication ;-)
    I noticed that too. I don't know enough about the maker (or early violin makers in general) to know if it is a misspelling or a different person.

  22. #18

    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Fake labels were added as soon as someone realized it made a difference, and at any point in time from manufacture through any sketchy repair/resale shop.

    Good shops will hardly give it a second glance because they'll know where and when it was made by a fairly quick look at the instrument. There are probably good shops in Austin, but Amati Violin Shop in Houston has been around for a *long* time and might be worth a call, if you're unsure of where to go.
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  24. #19
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    To anyone who regularly works on old cellos and double basses, those are common & modest repairs; not an issue in the hands of a competent luthier who understands and specializes in those instruments.
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  25. #20
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Of course it can be repaired by competent violin maker but I guess this is common German cello with a "fahrkarte" label. Perhaps it is of higher grade, not the lowes end but still the cost of repairs may exceed the value of the cello and by quite a margin. Just new setup and bridge would cost couple hundred dollars (or more than couple) and the repairs to neck block, ribs and several cracks in top and button graft, neck reset... all major work. Easily done but costly as it takes time and expertise of good luthier.
    I'd suggest taking good pics and post them on maestronet.com forum. There are good instruction how to take pics for identification and behind the nicknames are some of the best in violin business. They may sometimes sound blunt at first but that's because they have no emotional relationship to the ID'd instruments and just take it as they see it.
    Adrian

  26. #21

    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Just as calling a mandolin an F or A, or a violin Stradivarious or Stainer isn’t necessarily deceptive because those are shapes. Except for the very recent past where there are such things as legal trademarks, a label can really mean ‘in the style of’.
    I get these unbranded instruments and ask the experts here to identify them: do I put a slip of paper inside with a tentative ID, which can be helpful, or do I need a paragraph of legalese appended to avoid being deceitful?
    From aspirin to escalator to zoom, things that are even modern trademarks escape to the generic, without awful consequences.

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  28. #22

    Default Re: Worth repair?

    So, I took the Cello to a reputable shop in Austin this week. It is certainly repairable, be it costly.....but worth it. Apparently it is a very nice instrument, and would be worth repairing regardless....but according to this shop it may actually be real. Will probably need to ship it off to an expert in New York to be sure. Also, we found the original receipt from when my grandpa bought it from a renowned luthier in Amsterdam on May 1st 1928. He traded in another cello...and in 1928 dollars actually paid a lot of money! Sorry it is in Dutch...... Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	201284 The plot thickens! Anyway, we decided to restore the instrument, no matter the authenticity :-)

  29. #23
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    Quote Originally Posted by CelloinAustin View Post
    So, I took the Cello to a reputable shop in Austin this week. It is certainly repairable, be it costly.....but worth it. Apparently it is a very nice instrument, and would be worth repairing regardless....but according to this shop it may actually be real. Will probably need to ship it off to an expert in New York to be sure. Also, we found the original receipt from when my grandpa bought it from a renowned luthier in Amsterdam on May 1st 1928. He traded in another cello...and in 1928 dollars actually paid a lot of money! Sorry it is in Dutch...... Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	201284 The plot thickens! Anyway, we decided to restore the instrument, no matter the authenticity :-)
    Good for you, this is a great story! Rob

  30. #24
    Registered User Chris Fannin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    In for the story.
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  31. #25
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    Default Re: Worth repair?

    If there is a real chance that it is either an 18th century Cremona instrument or an early 19th century Italian instrument, I wouldn't take the risk of shipping it anywhere. Such instruments can be quite valuable, and they are delicate.

    If you need to go out of town to have it identified and authenticated, gas up the car, pack a suitcase, and drive safely.

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