I certainly didn't use "pop" in a derogatory sense, though others may have. The Beatles were "pop" and it didn't do them any harm! Verse-chorus-verse with lyrics about being in love (or not) etc. is pop in my book and that's what Nickel Creek do really well.Originally Posted by (dudlebug23 @ Dec. 08 2005, 22:17)
I don't listen to music radio anymore, so I've little idea of what passes as pop music these days but I can assure you that is not what I was comparing Nickel Creek to!
<sigh> Okay, I just *have* to throw my $.02 in, no matter how little it's worth.
First, I *love* Nickel Creek, Chris Thile especially. I started listening to them when "This side" came out, and personally, I think "Deciever" is one of the greatest albums ever made(I'm only 19, but I've listened to a lot, so take that as you will) They didn't turn me off horrid pop or rap music, I never liked that anyways, but they have expanded my musical tastes massively. Sorry, I love 'em. At this point I'll give everything except rap and mainstream pop/country(toby keith-esque stuff...dixie chicks and johnny Cash rule)
As to the lyrics-I may have a different perspective than most of you, but I love their lyrics.
Louisa
The true call of a Christian is not to do extraordinary things, but to do ordinary things in an extraordinary way
verse-chorus-verse-about love...I certainly didn't use "pop" in a derogatory sense, though others may have. The Beatles were "pop" and it didn't do them any harm! Verse-chorus-verse with lyrics about being in love (or not) etc. is pop in my book and that's what Nickel Creek do really well.
I don't listen to music radio anymore, so I've little idea of what passes as pop music these days but I can assure you that is not what I was comparing Nickel Creek to!
yes, they do that well, so does countless others in many different genres. They also play traditional folk tunes and bluegrass tunes very well....they also do gospel very well...I think the whole goal of Nickel Creek is to not be pigeon-holed into a genre at all. Some of their songs may resemble pop because they are partially influenced by pop, but they are influenced by so much more. Give a listen to House Carpenter...one of the best versions I've heard of this very old, traditional tune. I guess I get defensive about this band because I "get" them. These are three young people who LOVE music and are not prejudice to anything. They play what they love and are influenced by what they love. And they love alot of music. As Chris writes in one song from Deceiver: "...my music love, I'm told it's borderling obscene..." I'd love to get ahold of his IPOD. Yes, you'd find some pop on there, but also some bluegrass, some country, some Bach, some alternative...it's hard to tell. Just don't call a band that is so open-minded pop. Get to know them and their music, and you'll see what I mean! ALWAYS LISTEN!!!
www.soundclick.com/ericchandler
Weber mandolin, mandola, OM
I just got my first shot to see them live last week. I'm VERY pleased. I've YET to buy one of their CDs, but now I'm going to make it a point to do so.
Taken at face value, it's just darned good music.
Still like 'em, but I've always been a sucker for musicians who defy categorization.
R
Your tastes are your tastes -- who can argue? #But the moment you say "I like them BECAUSE..." or "I don't like them BECAUSE..." then there is plenty of room to argue. #The "because" is a set of reasons that are disputable. #So it's not fair to say why you don't like them (or do) and then say, "Well it's just my opinion, why are you getting so huffy?" when somebody disagrees with your reasons. #I think it's kinda fun to quarrel about the reasons and as long as nobody takes it personally (easy to do on the internet) we can fine tune the rationale for our tastes. #This thread has taught me some things about my tastes.
Lyrics are important, but they aren't everything. #NC has some lame sophomoric lyrics, no doubt. #The "I'll still be here when you come back down" line is so presumptuous and arrogant (What if she doesn't come back down, Chris? #What if she flys so high that you never see her again?) that I can barely listen to that song. #But "She loves me, ya, ya, ya" is hardly rocket science. #Lyrics alone are not the ultimate standard. #Otherwise, I couldn't like McCartney's solo work. #I do, but the genius isn't in the lyrics. #And even though I haven't heard the newest NC album, I heard a song on the radio and I thought the lyrics about not seeing eye to eye with the girl were fun. #And Seven Wonders is thoughtful, at least.
Community is important. #Did you ever think that maybe Thile plays with NC because he likes to? #Didn't he grow up playing with them? #Music that comes out of community is more meaningful to me than technical skill alone. #I respect music that is close to home. #The Cox Family and the Rankins get huge points for me because they are making music in community (family, in fact). #One of the reasons we all hate the Backstreet Boys and etc. is because they were an artificial band -- a Madison avenue band. #When the Spice Girls would give interviews and talk about their relationships with each other I could nearly puke. #NC is hardly a PR formula group. #I'd be embarrased to have you guys listen to my band's home-made CD, but my wife, kids, friends, and my fellow parishioners all think we're pretty cool stuff. #They like us for the same reason I like my kids first music recital and it didn't have anything to do with virtuosity. #
Authenticity is really important. #NC seems to have it. #They are fine musicians who write much of their own music, lyrics, and they PLAY and sing. #They are a real band in this regard. #
Musical skill is clearly important. #Somebody here mentioned laughing while listening to Thile's solo work because it is so amazing. #Me too! #They are doing something new, I think. #I can't listen to Young or Dylan because I can't get past Young's lame guitar playing and I can't get past either one's voice. #That said, they have both written some great tunes. #And NC live is just as amazing as NC recorded -- more so! #Somebody complained to me that Allison Kraus was lousy in concert because it sounded too much like a recording. #OK -- if you have so fallen in love with the tradition of bad sounding live music that you can't stand good live music, something is wrong. #NC is amazing live because they are real musicians.
Anyway, clearly NC is doing something right -- otherwise they wouldn't be getting poked and prodded like this all through cyberspace. #I like them.
I can't STAND "The Boss," by they way. #I haven't yet figured out why, though. #And as long as I don't give you any reasons for my distaste, it's only taste and you have no grounds for criticism. # # # #
YOUNG'S LAME GUITAR PLAYING!
I'm sorry but that is it. If one can't tell when playing has depth and when it just has flash I can't take them seriously. The guitar solo on Cowgirl in the Sand makes a lot of the nonsense we talk about as great playing sound like background music for Sunday morning cartoon shows.
Aaron Garrett
"Well, it's just my opinion, Garrett. Why are you getting so huffy?"
I didn't say his guitar playing doesn't have "depth." I didn't say "flash" defined musicianship. I just said I thought it was lame. Notice here that I'm not telling you WHY I think it's lame -- cause I don't really want to fight about it.
Your choice of the word "lame" and the blanket statement about all of his guitar playing. But it's not mando-content so I'm droppint it. Now if someone says the same thing about Frank W., Buzz Busby or Bill!
Aaron Garrett
You've misunderstood.I guess I get defensive about this band because I "get" them. These are three young people who LOVE music and are not prejudice to anything. Just don't call a band that is so open-minded pop. Get to know them and their music, and you'll see what I mean! ALWAYS LISTEN!!!
You don't need to get defensive because I love NC too, I know all their music inside out, and have no intention of insulting them whatsoever. You are right, they are not prejudiced against any music genre and that was exactly my point when I said that "pop" was not a derogatory term. It was implied in an earlier post that calling NC pop was somehow insulting, as if pop music is by definition not very good or insignificant. Pop is fun, youthful, expressive and energetic. Nickel Creek have these qualities in spades. They have no pretensions and are just as comfortable playing Bach as they are Britney Spears.
There is plenty of fantastic pop music out there and Nickel Creek are making some of the best. They also do other things, but their latest offerings as band and solo have all leaned heavily towards the likes of the Beatles, Elliot Smith and Beck rather than the folk and traditional influences of their first album. The best thing about them is there is no way to predict what their next records will be like. From what I've heard about Chris' next solo record, it will be a million miles from Deceiver. Can't wait!
Sorry to be pedantic, but this is a Tim O'Brien lyric, Nickel Creek didn't write it. However, I agree that some of their lyrics are rather cringeworthy. My (least) favourite is Thile's
I'm 19 and I've kissed two girls, that's all.
You're 16 and you're one - is that against the law?
I love the album but find it hard listening to that song because of that atrocious rhyming couplet!
NO.
My bad about attributing the lyric to NC, agdefan. It still makes my skin crawl.
Even genius stumbles from time to time. I think our tastes are often ill-defined (like my distaste for Neil Young -- I'll agree to drop it, Garrett) and so we proof text by magnifying the occasional slow spot. Tolkien's writing is amazing, but he's got this one line in the Return of the King in which someone "cries a tear drop like a rain drop." I have a colleague who is a Tolkien nut who is convinced that he rattled off that line (and botched it) because Mrs. Tolkien was in the kitchen shouting, "You've been at that stupid typewriter all day --now it's time for dinner so just get in here right now."
I absolutely agree with Dudlebug about pop. Put carefully selected voices with professionally, even scientifically written music and lyrics and you manufacture some real musical fun. But the originality, creativity, authenticity, and such are not in the band, -- they are in the marketing formula (which is why the bands themselves don't usually last too long). If an "authentic" band (for lack of a better term) feels that they have to measure up to the standards of perfection imposed by pop standards, then pretty soon they start getting over-produced.
I would just HATE being so good that I got famous and was forever pidgeonholed into a genre (ok I wouldn't hate the being good part). I get disappointed when I buy a CD from musicians whose work I have liked in the past and the new music isn't what I like or expected, BUT it would drive me bats as a musician if I was forever expected to do what the fans/critics/labels demanded that I do! NC may have gone poppy on this latest record (don't know, it's still in my wife's stocking) but I get the impression that they can and will do whatever they want to do, musically.
I think the only disagreement we have here (other than I really like Neil Young!) is the definition of pop music. I just use it as an all encompassing term that can include music from any genre that has a certain feel to it. You use it to describe manufactured and commercial music, your opinions on which I agree with wholeheartedly. As I said in my post above, this is *not* the kind of thing I mean when I say pop.
Pop and authenticity aren't mutually exclusive - John Lennon was in the world's most successful boy band, after all. Chris Thile has often been quoted that he has no desire to make music in order to sell records. He still writes some killer pop songs though (Sean Watkins writes even better ones). And as you say, they are not limited to such music. I've heard Thile play Bach and Mozart. I've also heard him play the Super Mario Bros theme and Britney Spears.
So we appear to be having a discussion about the definition of a three letter word. It's not like I have loads of work to finish before Christmas, or anything
I hate that lyric also, cringeworthy. I attribute that to a sheltered, home-schooled boy not wise to the ways of the world. He's getting better though. I'd bet he wrote that song a while ago when he wasn't as experienced in the ways of women and love. What I am impressed with on his whole album, Deceiver, is the engineering and instrumental work. I still can't fathom that he played EVERY instrument on that album. And played them well. WOW.Sorry to be pedantic, but this is a Tim O'Brien lyric, Nickel Creek didn't write it. However, I agree that some of their lyrics are rather cringeworthy. My (least) favourite is Thile's
I'm 19 and I've kissed two girls, that's all.
You're 16 and you're one - is that against the law?
I love the album but find it hard listening to that song because of that atrocious rhyming couplet!
www.soundclick.com/ericchandler
Weber mandolin, mandola, OM
"So we appear to be having a discussion about the definition of a three letter word. It's not like I have loads of work to finish before Christmas, or anything"
Ahhhhh, but I turned in all of my grades at noon today, so I'm a free man.
Here's a distinction that I think proves helpful. I think our use of the term "pop" is problematic. Madonna, NSync, Ashey Simpson, etc. -- they are not pop music because they are not popular culture. Pop doesn't just mean "popular because lots of people like it," it means, "popular because the populace is doing it." A garage band is popular music/culture. Me and my trio are popular music/culture. Most of the folks on this forum DO music (play with friends, go to small jam sessions and festivals, play in coffee houses now and again). Madonna, NSync, and etc. aren't popular culture -- they are mass culture. "Mass" as in mass produced, manufactured, etc.
And this is really far afield, but the unfortunate part of American popular culture is that most of it is spent consuming mass culture (we watch TV, go to the movies, listen to the radio, then spend lots of time talking about what we watch and hear). Lot's of Americans consume music (buy it and listen) but not too many are making music (writing, playing, etc.).
OK, I'm done.
I attribute that change from album to album with the change of growing up. Their first album, produced by Alison Krauss, was when they were in their teens and still in their early phase of being influenced by different genres but sticking to their roots. Second album, a departure for sure, but still mellow, again produced by Krauss, so I'm sure she reigned them in again. However, they are again growing up and becoming more vocal in what style of music they want to play, what they want to sound like. Then Why Should the Fire Die comes out...they've abandoned Krauss, they're young adults, Chris has been through a divorce, they've had relationships and all the problems that go with that...finally...and their music finally reflects this. The thing is, the whole album isn't consistantly pop from song to song. Scotch and Chocolate? Not popish. Stumptown? Nope. Tommorow is a Long Time? That's a Dylan song, so folk. Doubting Thomas? In my opinion, that one's more like the first album. There are songs on there that are Elliot Smith sounding, yes, but I think they represented their tastes and influences well, and displayed their skill amazingly. I think they feel they can get their own personal styles out in their solo albums now, and when they record as a band, play what is good and accepted by the group. Thanks for the good-spirited debate you all! None of this has been defensive on my part, I just love discussing music!
www.soundclick.com/ericchandler
Weber mandolin, mandola, OM
Worthy of a Grammy nomination.
Field 27 - Production, Non-Classical
Category 90 - #Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical
(An Engineer's Award. #(Artists names appear in parenthesis.))
• Deceiver
# # #Gary Paczosa & Chris Thile, engineers (Chris Thile)
# # #[Sugar Hill Records]
I'm having a hard time believing that my second post is about Thile and Nickel Creek. I had hoped to avoid all of this. Either you like him or you don't. We can all yell about it, we all seem to agree that the kid can f-ing play. You like what he does or you don't. Simple. It's the side issues making my eyes water after 6 (very interesting) pages. First, I have no idea why Thile uses a volume pedal, but I know I use on here and there to give me an extra push when I'm taking the break. I get a little excited up there and that crutch keeps the live sound a little smoother. I think I'm an alright player and I think I use dynamics, but live is a different game, for me. When people yell I chop as hard as I pick. Sue me. Second, why in the hell do we care what kind of music it is? what does that have to do with anything? If you think it's pop and you hate pop, there you go. You now have a reason to dislike it. I don't know why you need it, but there it is. Me, I like music. All of it. Some songs I like and some I don't, but I don't hate a kind and I don't think it's really useful to.. Let's leave the idea of "if we can call it something we can compartmentalize it" to the critics and get on to talking like musicians. the endeavor to have control over a thing by labeling it is for the academics and those afraid to go [/I]do it[I]. It fails to have an honest impact on the sound.
I like him and I learn from him and I steal from him whenever my fingers let me. Sure, there's some dumb lyrics, but Jimi singing about nonsense and getting his nob polished has not stopped me from learning from and enjoying the joy of sound he left. Sorry, all done now. I still missed what I wanted to say, but I tried.
Kevin Trudo
Yes, it really reminded me of the old Godley & Creme recordings.Worthy of a Grammy nomination.
Field 27 - Production, Non-Classical
Category 90 - #Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical
(An Engineer's Award. #(Artists names appear in parenthesis.))
• Deceiver
# # #Gary Paczosa & Chris Thile, engineers (Chris Thile)
# # #[Sugar Hill Records]
2015 Chevy Silverado
2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"
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