Again, I'm not suggesting they charge $1000. For $2700, the costs you stated leave plenty of room for overhead, wages, and profit though.
I may have been a bit off on the other builders, besides the Northfields, there doesn't seem to be all that much out there for under $3k built in a factory in the US. There are several individual makers though, i.e. Morris, Cross, Dubova.
Sorry, but a Northfield Model M, their entry level A style, is $2800, with 'Maple and Spruce from North America. Assembled in our Qingdao shop. Varnishing and set up in our Marshall, MI shop.'
So no US factory made mandos under $3k presently.
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Northfield has produced hundreds of Calhoun mandolins that retail under $1K since this article came out in 2018: Northfield Introduces Three New Michigan-Made Instruments
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The problem being that if they retail in a shop for $2800 they have to built for about $1400 or $1800 at the most and still have a profit margin at that price.
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That detail was left out, but if we are talking comps for the Bourgeois it would assume arched top. If we are talking flat top obviously that brings a bunch more builders to the table in the sub 3k category.
I stopped by their NAMM booth again yesterday and while the Bourgeois A model is aesthetically beautiful, it struck me as not offering much beyond the existing Eastman mando line. I also briefly strummed the MDO-605 octave and sonically it's very much in the same pocket as the 305, which is a fine thing. The flamed maple back was unremarkable; in fact it was kinda plain.
As Scott said, there is Northfield, which markets the Calhoun at around $1k. There is nothing after that because it is not sustainable. My hat is off to Northfield as they continue to offer this model, along with the others, but from a business perspective the Calhoun is probably not driving in $$$$ profits.
And yes, there are a few small builders offering mandolins in that lower price range, but there's no real volume coming out of those shops, and to be honest, if you sat down and did a unit cost analysis of these mandolins, there would be some unhappy faces in the room. My guess is that they are giving their labor away, and they can do that because it's there's to give, but if they really wanted to pay themselves a living wage, their prices would look quite differently.
Companies need to make money and in order to offer the model that Bourgeois proposes to bring to the market, in the quantities that they are probably projecting, they will need to make these overseas.
And CarlM is right, in order to sell these through shops there has to be enough room in the profit margin to allow dealers to make money on the sale of instruments.
Doug, I think the model they are using is a higher level than Eastman currently produces, which is the same business model they are using for guitars, which do quite well in Europe (which several dealers have told me is their market). The problem has been producing enough of the guitars for them to enter the market and spur more sales in the US.
I think this is a great idea, but I am not sure whether the price will stay under $3k by the time they actually deliver the first few batches to dealers. Hiring skilled labor anywhere these days is like the Wild West.
The real question here, especially in the US with makers like Collings and Pava, and other small shops (not solo shops), is if you are going to expend the expertise and effort on building an instrument do you build a $3k instrument which will yield a lower profit or a $7k instrument which requires as much or almost as much labor as the $3k one? It's a question a lot of companies are asking themselves these days.
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Last edited by Mandolin Cafe; Jun-06-2022 at 3:49pm. Reason: This post violates Forum posting guidelines
Since this discussion started concerning the new Bourgeois Mandolin, pictured as a carved top A style, I inadvertently assumed the thread maintained that discussion, and was focused on 'factory made' mandolins. You caught the lack of style specificity, so the Northfield Calhoun, a flat top model, is USA made and under $3k. The other assumption, ie, the discussion was only 'factory made' instruments, should be expanded to include sole proprietors, such as Sonny Morris and Audie Ratliff, each of whom make carved, A style mandolins < $3k. The lowest priced new Pava seems to be slightly greater than $3k. I suspect there are other less well known makers in the sub $3K price range for an A style. and probably even other makers who make flattops in that price range.
As I said in the original thread about Bourgeois mandolins, good luck to them.
Not all the clams are at the beach
Arrow Manouche
Arrow Jazzbo
Arrow G
Clark 2 point
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Try buying the $150 A mandolin kit from International Violin that's already got the plates carved, f holes cut, sides bent, and assembled neck including bound and fretted fingerboard and see just how many hours it takes you to glue it all up, sand, and finish it. Then consider how many hours you would have to add to rough out the plates by machine, finish graduating them by hand, cut the f-holes, bend the sides, cut the binding channels, assemble the neck from scratch, etc., and get back to us.
And make sure you factor in the cost of employer's expenses, such as 7% added to wages for Social Security, many hundreds a month for providing a health insurance plan, and so on. And maintaing equipment. And yeah, there's water, power, and heating/cooling bills for the shop.
Oh, and remember that dealers have to be able to afford your wholesale prices in order to make a profit. Or if a company limits themselves to direct sales, then they have to hire additional sales staff, and probably an extra man or two in the shipping department . . .
I don't think Pava will be able to maintain their very attractive prices for much longer.
Last edited by rcc56; Jun-06-2022 at 6:54pm.
I believe Northfield made the carved top Model M in the Michigan workshop
According to the Northfield website: [www.northfieldinstruments.com/model-m]: "Maple and spruce from North America. Assembled in our Qingdao shop. Varnishing and set up in our Marshall, MI shop."
9 min 13 sec in you will get a sound sample of the new Bourgeois mandolins...
I agree completely about the tone of the mandolin and the OM. They sounded tinny and green —- like they were built in late May. The mando may look like $3K, but it sounds like $1K.
Bourgeois or Eastman should produce a video that clearly lets potential current and future buyers hear the true tone of these instruments, before too many watch this video and rule out a purchase.
still trying to turn dreams into memories
We’re onto our second page of this thread about Bourgeois Mandolins -they must be doing something right!
I think I’d like a mandolin called Bourgeois!
You can hear how a Bourgeois mandolin sounds on rhythm and melody of "Billy in the Lowground" during the first minute of this video. After that, it's all about the Touchstone guitars.
still trying to turn dreams into memories
Sounds fine to me...
Last edited by Demetrius; Jul-01-2022 at 1:00pm.
The Northfield F5S and Big Mon are both made in China as well and currently retail at $3.5k and $5k respectively. It's understood there will always be those that chose US made instruments on principle even if it means paying a premium, but I think Northfield has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is ample demand for high end instruments that offer a good value regardless of country of origin. The Northfield mandolins I've played and owned were certainly not lacking in quality for their price point. Similarly, I've always felt Eastmans offered considerable value for the price. I see no reason to believe these Bourgeois mandolins will have any issue selling in a market where many folks are looking for a next level mandolin after their beginnner/intermediate Eastmans.
But Northfields are not factory-made instruments. There are no large groups of workers making their instruments.
From what I understand from someone who was contacted by Bourgeois is that the mandolins will be made overseas and then set up and adjusted in the US. They still have not found luthiers here for those positions, despite advertising for over a year. So, it may be some time before these roll out in any great numbers.
"your posts ... very VERY opinionated ...basing your opinion/recommendations ... pot calling ...kettle... black...sarcasm...comment ...unwarranted...unnecessary...."
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